Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Tony Bartolucci: Drowning in the Tiber--Part 12 is finally here!

Part 12 in Pastor Tony Bartolucci's series 'Drowning in the Tiber' is available for listening. It is the final installment of the series and is called 'The Reformation, Theology, and the Theology of the Reformation.' I'm looking forward to listening to it. Then I need to go back and listen to the whole series again to review it.

5 comments:

Jennie said...

After listening to the message yesterday, many important things stand out, but one very interesting thing I remember is what Pastor Tony said about John 3:5. See the surrounding passage:
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

If I heard him correctly, Pastor Tony said verse 5 can be translated from the Greek 'Unless one is born of water, even the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'
If anyone understood how Tony described the Greek grammar of that phrase, or knows some Greek and can discuss this, please comment.
This would show that protestants are correct in saying that water is another way of saying 'Spirit', as in the 'living water' that Jesus speaks of in the next chapter of John when He meets the woman at the well.
Also, the whole idea of the passage above is 'being born of the Spirit.'

Jennie said...

one of the early points Pastor Tony makes is that one reason the Roman Catholic church confused justification and sanctification is because they used the Latin Vulgate Bible instead of the Greek texts and so their doctrine of justification reflected a flawed translation.
I am wondering why this happened. What happened to the Greek texts during the time period in question? Was this only in the Western church that this confusion happened because they used the Latin version?

Jennie said...

I believe Pastor Tony said Erasmus began using the Greek texts to make new translations and Martin Luther and others were able to study from this and understand the original intent of the scriptures, and so recover the doctrine of justification by faith.

Paul said...

Jennie,
I'm not sure if this will help or not regarding the John 3:5 reference.

Vine: Some regard the kai, "and," in John 3:5, as epexegetic, = 'even,' in which case the water would be emblematic of the Spirit, as in John 7:38 (cp. 4:10, 14) (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, water, page 1214).

Wuest: One of the basic rules of interpretation is to ascertain just what the Word of God meant to the one who recorded it, and to the one who received it at the time it was written. Another rule of interpretation is to take into consideration the other uses of the same term in other places. Our Lord was talking to a man who was learned in the Old Testament scriptures. He would be expected to use Jewish phraseology in a case like this. In John 7:37, 38, He uses the word "water" as referring to the Holy Spirit. When speaking to the Samaritan woman who as a Samaritan was familiar at least with the Pentateuch, He uses the word "water" in such a way that we are led to believe that He referred to the Holy Spirit, because He speaks of the water which He will give, as a spring of water leaping up into life ete rnal. In neither place does He explain the symbol, John finding it necessary to do so in 7:39, and for the reason that he is writing for Gentile believers. Nicodemus, as a Jewish theologian, is supposed to have been familiar with Isaiah 44:3, where water is a type of the Holy Spirit, and also with Isaiah 55:1, where the prophet says, "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters." These considerations lead the writer to incline to the interpretation that the word "water" here was used by Jesus as a symbol of the Holy Spirit as He does in the case of the Samaritan woman and also when He spoke at the great day of the feast. The Greek word translated "and" has other uses than merely that of a connective. It has an emphatic or ascensive use, and is at that time translated by the word "even". Thus, th e translation here could read, "Except a man be born of water, even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Another consideration pointing to this interpretation and translation is the fact that when Jesus recurs again to the new birth in verse 6 and 8, He does not refer to water at all, but only to the Spirit. Evidently seeing the blank look on the face of Nicodemus, our Lord adds the we translation here could read, "Except a man be born of water, even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Another consideration pointing to this interpretation and translation is the fact that when Jesus recurs again to the new birth in verse 6 and 8, He does not refer to water at all, but only to the Spirit. Evidently seeing the blank look on the face of Nicodemus, our Lord adds the words "even of".

Jennie said...

Yes, that's very helpful Paul.