For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty... that no flesh should glory in His presence.... —that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”
1 Corinthians 1:26-31
Monday, October 12, 2009
The Primacy of Peter: Visits to Candyland
There's a good discussion going on over at Visits to Candyland about the Primacy of Peter.
Jennie, I see that Kelly has closed down comments on her Primacy thread.
Elena did say: "What we know for certain is that Luther and the other reforms did not have respect for the way the scriptures had been for over 1000 years and took out the deuterocanonical books and Luther even tried to add a word."
James Swan had a previous post to the one you linked to that demonstrates that using "alone" was not first introduced by Luther. Cont.
4. Previous translations of the word “alone” in Romans 3:28 Luther offers another line of reasoning in his “Open Letter on Translating” that many of the current Cyber-Catholics ignore, and most Protestants are not aware of:
“Furthermore, I am not the only one, nor the first, to say that faith alone makes one righteous. There was Ambrose, Augustine and many others who said it before me.”
Now here comes the fun part in this discussion.
The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 with the word “alone.”
At 3:28 Luther introduced the adv. “only” into his translation of Romans (1522), “alleyn durch den Glauben” (WAusg 7.38); cf. Aus der Bibel 1546, “alleine durch den Glauben” (WAusg, DB 7.39); also 7.3-27 (Pref. to the Epistle). See further his Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen, of 8 Sept. 1530 (WAusg 30.2 [1909], 627-49; “On Translating: An Open Letter” [LuthW 35.175-202]). Although “alleyn/alleine” finds no corresponding adverb in the Greek text, two of the points that Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.
Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):
Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).
Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).
Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).
Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): “sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,” through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).
John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).
Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19]).
Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): “solam justificatur per fidem,” is justified by faith alone.
Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).
James, I'm glad I found your post; I wish I knew more about the subject myself, but I'm learning. If you happened to read some of the thread you'll see it didn't do any apparent good. Victory was claimed without any apparent resolution to the questions we were discussing. However, (I hope) I'm not in this to 'win' but to persuade for the truth.
Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): “reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam”; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): “solum ex fide Christi” [Opera 20.437, b41]).
See further:
Theodore of Mopsuestia, In ep. ad Galatas (ed. H. B. Swete), 1.31.15.
Marius Victorinus (ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16: “Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem” (For faith itself alone gives justification and sanctification); In ep. Pauli Ephesios (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15: “Sed sola fides in Christum nobis salus est” (But only faith in Christ is salvation for us).
Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”). Migne Latin Text: Venire quippe debet etiam illud in mentem, quod scriptum est, In hoc cognoscimus eum, si mandata ejus servemus. Qui dicit, Quia cognovi eum, et mandata ejus non servat, mendax est, et in hoc veritas non est (I Joan. II, 3, 4). Et ne quisquam existimet mandata ejus ad solam fidem pertinere: quanquam dicere hoc nullus est ausus, praesertim quia mandata dixit, quae ne multitudine cogitationem spargerent [Note: [Col. 0223] Sic Mss. Editi vero, cogitationes parerent.], In illis duobus tota Lex pendet et Prophetae (Matth. XXII, 40): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere Dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intelligatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur; tamen postea Joannes ipse aperuit quid diceret, cum ait: Hoc est mandatum ejus, ut credamus nomini Filii ejus Jesu Christi, et diligamns invicem (I Joan. III, 23) See De fide et operibus, Cap. XXII, §40, PL 40:223.
Source: Joseph A. Fitzmyer Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993) 360-361.
Notice: Even some Catholic versions of the New Testament also translated Romans 3:28 as did Luther. The Nuremberg Bible (1483), “allein durch den glauben” and the Italian Bibles of Geneva (1476) and of Venice (1538) say “per sola fede.”
Jennie, I noticed that you made several valid challenges that went unaddressed, unrefuted. Also the fact that Kelly admitted that there was no Papacy as seen today and yet Rome claimed there was. The whole "Development Hypothesis" from Cardinal Newman has been employed since Vatican I in an effort to diffuse the fact that history was not on Rome's side.
Paul, yes, several things I said did not get answered. If you see any ways I can improve, let me know; I'm sure I have lots of blind spots.
Yes, I also noticed that Kelly had admitted that about the papacy developing gradually; but she also still seems to think Peter was the first pope; it didn't occur to me to mention that. Contradictions seem to be accepted without question unless they think they see some from the protestant side.
I'd also like to learn more about the canonicity issue; the history of how the NT canon was understood and finalized. The RCs usually bring up that there was alot of disagreement about which books were canonical, while protestant articles I've read say the church pretty much understood which books were inspired all along. I'm oversimplifying, I know. Also the issue of Luther not thinking certain books should be included, like James, is also brought up. I need to do some reading; I'm just getting bits and pieces right now by reading whatever I happen to come across.
That's great Jennie. William Webster has some helpful articles on his site documenting the Canon issue. As far as Luther goes James Swan has been studying Luther for years and has investigated Luther's view of the Scriptures. Luther has been slandered and misunderstood more than any other Protestant that I know of.
Unfortunately, in many of the discussions I've been involved in it doesn't seem to matter what I say, if they can find a 'reason' to laugh at it, they claim victory in the debate and don't even seem to hear the reasoning I or my sources use; or they just say they refuted me without actually doing it.
Jennie, Don't get discouraged. Even if those folks are not taking your challenges and arguments to heart, God may use your work to open the eyes/hearts of outsiders that stumble across your labor. I was getting beat up daily when I was posting on Speak Your Mind. But one thread ended at 32 pages with over 10,000 views. And I was able to save much of it in a file for future use.
13 comments:
Thanks for linking to my blog post on Luther allegedly adding "alone" to the Bible.
Smarter Roman Catholics would not make such an argument against Luther. Unfortunately, many of those not deep into history will.
Jennie,
I see that Kelly has closed down comments on her Primacy thread.
Elena did say:
"What we know for certain is that Luther and the other reforms did not have respect for the way the scriptures had been for over 1000 years and took out the deuterocanonical books and Luther even tried to add a word."
James Swan had a previous post to the one you linked to that demonstrates that using "alone" was not first introduced by Luther.
Cont.
4. Previous translations of the word “alone” in Romans 3:28
Luther offers another line of reasoning in his “Open Letter on Translating” that many of the current Cyber-Catholics ignore, and most Protestants are not aware of:
“Furthermore, I am not the only one, nor the first, to say that faith alone makes one righteous. There was Ambrose, Augustine and many others who said it before me.”
Now here comes the fun part in this discussion.
The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 with the word “alone.”
At 3:28 Luther introduced the adv. “only” into his translation of Romans (1522), “alleyn durch den Glauben” (WAusg 7.38); cf. Aus der Bibel 1546, “alleine durch den Glauben” (WAusg, DB 7.39); also 7.3-27 (Pref. to the Epistle). See further his Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen, of 8 Sept. 1530 (WAusg 30.2 [1909], 627-49; “On Translating: An Open Letter” [LuthW 35.175-202]). Although “alleyn/alleine” finds no corresponding adverb in the Greek text, two of the points that Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.
Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):
Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).
Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).
Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).
Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): “sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,” through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).
John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).
Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19]).
Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): “solam justificatur per fidem,” is justified by faith alone.
Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).
James,
I'm glad I found your post; I wish I knew more about the subject myself, but I'm learning. If you happened to read some of the thread you'll see it didn't do any apparent good. Victory was claimed without any apparent resolution to the questions we were discussing. However, (I hope) I'm not in this to 'win' but to persuade for the truth.
To these eight Lyonnet added two others (Quaestiones, 114-18):
Theodoret, Affectionum curatio 7 (PG 93.100; ed. J. Raeder [Teubner], 189.20-24).
Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): “reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam”; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): “solum ex fide Christi” [Opera 20.437, b41]).
See further:
Theodore of Mopsuestia, In ep. ad Galatas (ed. H. B. Swete), 1.31.15.
Marius Victorinus (ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16: “Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem” (For faith itself alone gives justification and sanctification); In ep. Pauli Ephesios (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15: “Sed sola fides in Christum nobis salus est” (But only faith in Christ is salvation for us).
Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”). Migne Latin Text: Venire quippe debet etiam illud in mentem, quod scriptum est, In hoc cognoscimus eum, si mandata ejus servemus. Qui dicit, Quia cognovi eum, et mandata ejus non servat, mendax est, et in hoc veritas non est (I Joan. II, 3, 4). Et ne quisquam existimet mandata ejus ad solam fidem pertinere: quanquam dicere hoc nullus est ausus, praesertim quia mandata dixit, quae ne multitudine cogitationem spargerent [Note: [Col. 0223] Sic Mss. Editi vero, cogitationes parerent.], In illis duobus tota Lex pendet et Prophetae (Matth. XXII, 40): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere Dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intelligatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur; tamen postea Joannes ipse aperuit quid diceret, cum ait: Hoc est mandatum ejus, ut credamus nomini Filii ejus Jesu Christi, et diligamns invicem (I Joan. III, 23) See De fide et operibus, Cap. XXII, §40, PL 40:223.
Source: Joseph A. Fitzmyer Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993) 360-361.
Notice:
Even some Catholic versions of the New Testament also translated Romans 3:28 as did Luther. The Nuremberg Bible (1483), “allein durch den glauben” and the Italian Bibles of Geneva (1476) and of Venice (1538) say “per sola fede.”
source:
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html
Jennie,
I noticed that you made several valid challenges that went unaddressed, unrefuted. Also the fact that Kelly admitted that there was no Papacy as seen today and yet Rome claimed there was. The whole "Development Hypothesis" from Cardinal Newman has been employed since Vatican I in an effort to diffuse the fact that history was not on Rome's side.
Paul,
yes, several things I said did not get answered. If you see any ways I can improve, let me know; I'm sure I have lots of blind spots.
Yes, I also noticed that Kelly had admitted that about the papacy developing gradually; but she also still seems to think Peter was the first pope; it didn't occur to me to mention that. Contradictions seem to be accepted without question unless they think they see some from the protestant side.
I'd also like to learn more about the canonicity issue; the history of how the NT canon was understood and finalized. The RCs usually bring up that there was alot of disagreement about which books were canonical, while protestant articles I've read say the church pretty much understood which books were inspired all along. I'm oversimplifying, I know. Also the issue of Luther not thinking certain books should be included, like James, is also brought up.
I need to do some reading; I'm just getting bits and pieces right now by reading whatever I happen to come across.
That's great Jennie.
William Webster has some helpful articles on his site documenting the Canon issue.
As far as Luther goes James Swan has been studying Luther for years and has investigated Luther's view of the Scriptures.
Luther has been slandered and misunderstood more than any other Protestant that I know of.
http://www.christiantruth.com/apocryphaintroduction.html
Unfortunately, in many of the discussions I've been involved in it doesn't seem to matter what I say, if they can find a 'reason' to laugh at it, they claim victory in the debate and don't even seem to hear the reasoning I or my sources use; or they just say they refuted me without actually doing it.
Paul,
I'll check out James' site some more, and Webster.
Jennie,
Don't get discouraged. Even if those folks are not taking your challenges and arguments to heart, God may use your work to open the eyes/hearts of outsiders that stumble across your labor. I was getting beat up daily when I was posting on Speak Your Mind. But one thread ended at 32 pages with over 10,000 views. And I was able to save much of it in a file for future use.
Post a Comment