Over on Visits to Candyland, Leo, who is Catholic, has challenged the other Catholics there to pray a novena of Hail Marys 'for my conversion' in hopes that I will convert to Catholicism. Here is his challenge:
Elena, I have a challenge and a request for you, Christine and John. This thought came to me last week and again at Mass this morning and so I offer it to you.
Would you each be willing to join me in a simple 9 day novena? Let's say one simple Hail Mary each day for 9 consecutive days for the sake of Jennie's conversion. This would put the whole thing in our Blessed Mother's hands and give the Holy Spirit the opportunity to witness to the role of His spouse. It would also witness to the effect of even one simple Hail Mary prayer. Are you game?
I didn't know how or if I should respond to this, so I prayed about it for a while. The first thing that came to mind was Elijah and the prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18, especially the passage which says "Then you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, He is God." After praying and thinking some more, and talking to my husband about it, I decided I shouldn't challenge them to pray to Mary while I pray to God, since I don't want to encourage people to do that. Also Elijah didn't ask the Israelite people to pray to Baal, but only to watch while the prophets called on Baal. I finally decided to challenge them to pray to the Father about whom they should pray to in heaven, while reading scriptures about prayer, and to be willing to submit to whatever the Father shows them in His word. Leo accepted my challenge, though he said he will do the novena to Mary as well. I don't know if the others are accepting my challenge, though 2 have accepted Leo's.
Here is my challenge:
Leo,
I've been praying about what you've said here, and if I should say anything about it. I'm asking that you don't pray to Mary for me, not because I think it will hurt or affect me, but for your own sake and the others. If you want to pray for me, please pray to the Father in heaven.
I would like to request instead of your challenge, that you accept mine. I will pray to the Father that He would open your eyes to see that He is the only one in heaven that we should pray to, as Jesus taught us to pray. I ask that you would pray the same thing, that the Father would show you whom you should pray to in heaven, and that you will be willing to submit to Him in whatever He shows you in His word. Would you accept this challenge, to pray this for 9 days in faith that God will give wisdom?
And here's another note I added later after praying and thinking about this some more:
Leo, our hearts can deceive us, so I'm asking that we search God's word about prayer as we pray, and ask that God would open our eyes by the Holy Spirit's guidance through His word. I'm going to do a search on prayer and pray and praying, etc.
So we're praying that the Father would show us whom we should pray to in heaven, and that we will submit to whatever He shows us in His word.
By the way, last night I remembered the passage that says our hearts can deceive us, and added three words to my request: 'in His word'.
Jeremiah 17:
9 “ The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
I'm going to post some of the passages I find as I search the scriptures about prayer. If nothing else, I'll learn some more good things about prayer. I hope everyone does.
63 comments:
I suggest that we agree that we all will never have all the answers. Let us all agree to appeal to God that he leads us to the truth. Maybe use Merton's prayer, " MY LORD GOD, I have no idea where I am going.
I do not see the road ahead of me.
I cannot know for certain where it will end.
Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so.
But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you.
And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing.
I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire.
And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road though I may know nothing about it.
Therefore will I trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death.
I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone."
As someone a bit familiar with the author, it always helps me.
That's a very good prayer, John. Very true.
This is from Merton's first book:
I should have begun to pray, really pray. ... But I did not. I did not even know what was ordinary mental prayer, and I was quite capable of practising that from the start: but what is even worse, it was four or five months before I even learned how to say the Rosary properly, although I had one and used occasionally to say the Paters and Aves without knowing what else was required.
One of the big defects of my spiritual life in that first year was a lack of devotion to the Mother of God. I believed in the truths which the Church teaches about Our Lady, and I said the "Hail Mary" when I prayed, but that is not enough. People do not realize the tremendous power of the Blessed Virgin. They do not know who she is: that it is through her hands all graces come because God has willed that she thus participate in His work for the salvation of men.
Jennie,
Just to clarify, I meant for your conversion to understand the Truth about the Church and the Blessed Mother. God always invites; He never forces us to believe. If fact, when many top former evangelicals came home to the Church, thet asked God in prayer what they should do, and He in turn asked them what they wanted to do and left it up to them.
I will be keeping the novena for you, Jennie, and I find that I am saying a quick prayer for you quite often. And praying for us both to be completely open to God's will. It's your choice of course but I will be disappointed if you spend this time searching for scripture verses that are then interpreted to undermine Catholicism. I hope to set aside conflicts during this time.
John,
I haven't actually read any of Thomas Merton's books, just quotes from them. I have read a little about him; wasn't he coming to the conclusion before he died that he could be a Buddhist and a Christian at the same time?
I have the impression that he was seeking truth, but was seeking it in meditation practices rather than in the revealed truth of God's word. I believe God wants us to dig into scripture and wrestle with it, as Jacob wrestled with the angel, whom some believe was really Christ, the Word Himself. We will seek Him and find Him, when we seek Him with all our hearts. But He tells us where He can be found.
John, I do agree that we can think we are right or in God's will, and really not be. The way to correct ourselves is by constantly being in God's word and prayer for understanding. My husband compares it to correcting the sight on a rifle, since he was in the army. You have to keep aiming at the target (God's word) and correcting your rifle sight until you hit the center consistently. So we keep looking at God's word and correcting our sight and our thoughts and behavior until it hits the target.
To do this we have to have faith that we can find God in His word as He says, and that He will 'reward those who earnestly seek Him.' Without this faith, 'it is impossible to please God'.
But that is not the place that belongs to Mary in the lives of men. She is the Mother of Christ still, His Mother in all our souls. She is the Mother of the supernatural life in us. Sanctity comes to us through her intercession. God has willed that there be no other way.
Teresa, this is a quote from the book by Merton, "Seven Storey Mountain" that you linked to above, near or on the page that you linked to.
From this, I see that Merton's trust and search for truth was not in God's word, but in the teachings of the Church about Mary, and also the mystical traditions, as he speaks of in that same chapter.
He says three things that are not in scripture, and that contradict it. 1. Mary is the Mother of Christ still, His Mother in our souls: It is questionable that God wants us to think of her still in that way and exalt her, as Jesus gave her to John to go and live in John's home. It is not spoken of in scripture that we should enshrine her in our hearts as Christ's mother. Christ taught us to 'hallow' the Father's name in our hearts when He taught the disciples to pray, not Mary's name.
2. "sanctity comes to us through her intercession": This is never spoken of in scripture and contradicts the word that says "Sanctify them by Thy Truth. Thy word is Truth." Also, in Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
Again this says we are sanctified by the word of God.
Hebrews 13:12
Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
We are sanctified by the blood of Christ.
1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.
We sanctify the Lord in our hearts, not Mary.
3."God has willed that there by no other way."
I have already shown that there is only one way, the Word of God, who is Jesus Christ, as revealed in the scriptures, the written word of God.
Scripture never mentions a word of Mary being a way to anything. Jesus Christ is the only way to God. This is contrary to scripture, and seems like another religion to me.
If fact, when many top former evangelicals came home to the Church, they asked God in prayer what they should do, and He in turn asked them what they wanted to do and left it up to them.
Leo,
that's kind of a general statement, but if it's so, then I would say: does God never let us do things that are contrary to His word if that's what we are determined to do? If He has specific things already stated in His word that should give us pause, then if we ignore that and ask Him anyway, He may let us go where we want. Haven't you ever given a command, and your child asks if he can do something anyway, and you've said something like "go ahead and do what you want, if you're determined, but you'll have to deal with the consequences."?
When converts mention the experience that Leo is citing, it's like they experience a powerful sense of their freedom in Christ, and the Holy Spirit makes clear the desire of that believer's heart in a dramatic way, asking "What do YOU want, my child" and the answer simultaneously singing in the person's heart - "I want to be part of the Catholic family of believers."
Even if every single detail isn't yet clear, when you know ENOUGH to "throw your lot in" with the Church, there is a sense of great welcoming and comfort in the surrender that only is given when your heart cries "What do YOU want, Lord?!" and he lovingly answers in a way that says "You already know in your heart."
If Mary isn't Jesus' mother still, then we aren't the mothers and fathers of our babies that have gone to be with the Lord.
Christine, scripture says in Hebrews that Jesus is a High Priest of the order of Melchizedek who had no father and no mother; as God He has no human geneology. I don't understand it, but I believe that this is saying that as God He has no mother, even though as a human she is. But she is not the mother of His Godhood, since He existed from eternity past. This is what I believe the Hebrews passage is saying, Jesus meant when He gave her to John.
Please, God, give me patience. PLEASE.
Jennie said:
He [Jesus] has no human genealogy
At mass this morning, we read Jesus' rather extensive genealogy as recorded in the first chapter of the Gospel according to St. Matthew. Jesus hails from a long line of Jewish kings.
I won't debate Merton with you - I would have quoted the same thing you did without difficulty - but the charge that Tom leaned Buddhist is often heard from Christians of your persuasion. I'm not sure anyone knows what was at work in his heart just before his death, but his first book is certainly written 20 years before the period you reference and he was more than orthodox at that time.
Moreover, Merton knew the Bible quite well - he had a great mind for literature and that sort of thing. But he was definitely humble to the church.
Peace.
Lord, please give Christine and me patience with each other. ;)
And Christine, thank you for praying for me, as you said you are.
Teresa,
I said 'as God, Jesus has no human geneology.' and I said I don't understand it, but that's what scripture says.
I know humanly he is in the geneology of kings of Judah, and Mary is part of that. Israel gave birth to her own king and savior, but that savior is also God who exists from everlasting to everlasting. Very hard to fathom, but I think scripture is giving us both ideas to show us that the eternal God who created all things is also 'God with us', and it's a wonderful and unexplainable thing.
But scripture does not lift Mary up to be the eternal (future eternity) Mother of God. She is representative of Israel and the Church who will be the bride, but we don't venerate or exalt ourselves. Mary is one of us, though greatly honored as the other saints. That's mmy perspective.
Just so everyone knows, I've re-opened comments on the earlier posts now that things have calmed down. This is so if you all have another comment you can make it, or if another reader comes on later, they can add to it.
I haven't normally closed comments in the past, but on some threads we used to go over 200 comments, and I was spending too much time online. Like now. So I'll have to do that again just for my own sanity. I am a nut case after all ;)
Jennie,
The point is not to get tangled up is scriptural paralysis by analysis. Jesus promised that"if you seek me with all your heart, you will surely find me."
It is impossible for someone to seek Him with all their hearts and to be misled. It is His greatest desire that ALL be saved.
When you are hiding behind the need to interpret sripture with the left side of your brain, you are not letting God speak directly to your heart without going through His book. He is our Abba and He wants an intimate personal relationship with each of us that is even closer than that with our spouses. Don't be afraid to trust God completely without needing to overanalyze everything.
Most people in the world are illiterate and so they cannot even read scripture. That, by the way, is why many Catholic churches have salvation history depicted in art.
Look, if God doesn't want you to ask for Mary's help, He will speak directly to your heart. Let the same obedient spirit that stopped you from using contraception, work in this too. Isn't it interesting that there is nothing explicit about artificial contraception in scripture and yet you know it's wrong? If you treated that the same 'sola scriptura' way you did Mary, you would still be contracepting and probably only have one beautiful daughter instead of six, with one praying for you in heaven.
You are denying the graces He wishes to extend you through Mary and the Sacraments, because of your stubbornness on this one. Can you still live the fullness of the Christian life He has intended for you without these graces? Could you still have had as fulfilling of a life with only one daughter, or perhaps two?
If you had not stepped out in Faith on children, you would never have known, but you can now compare and realize the fullness you would have missed out on.
The same is true for Mary and the Sacraments and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We are speaking with the experience of having both. We have the Trinity and scripture just as you do and we pray to the Father just as you do. In fact, the entire Mass is a prayer of sacrifice to the Father through Jesus in the unity of the Holy Spirit. However, we also have the graces of our Blessed Mother, the Eucharist, etc.
Jennie, don't forget that God can create and destroy the entire universe a trillion times in less than a trillionth of a second and that Mary is a mere creature whom He wishes to use in a special way. She can do nothing without God's power working through her and this is most abundantly clear to us.
On the other hand, God created light before He created the sun but He choosed to work through the sun to give us light now. Does He need the sun to give us light and warmth? Of course not, but He chooses to do so. Who am I to question His mind on that?
'chooses' I sound illiterate too...
Leo,
if you're illiterate too I thought some pictures would help... :D
Even if every single detail isn't yet clear, when you know ENOUGH to "throw your lot in" with the Church, there is a sense of great welcoming and comfort in the surrender that only is given when your heart cries "What do YOU want, Lord?!" and he lovingly answers in a way that says "You already know in your heart."
Christine, here are some passages of scripture that came to mind:
Proverbs 28:26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Proverbs 2: 1 My son, if you receive my words,
And treasure my commands within you,
2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom,
And apply your heart to understanding;
3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,
And lift up your voice for understanding,
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,
And find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
Ezekiel 14: 1 Now some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat before me. 2 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 3 “Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts, and put before them that which causes them to stumble into iniquity. Should I let Myself be inquired of at all by them?
4 “Therefore speak to them, and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Everyone of the house of Israel who sets up his idols in his heart, and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity, and then comes to the prophet, I the LORD will answer him who comes, according to the multitude of his idols, 5 that I may seize the house of Israel by their heart, because they are all estranged from Me by their idols.”’
6 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Repent, turn away from your idols, and turn your faces away from all your abominations. 7 For anyone of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who separates himself from Me and sets up his idols in his heart and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity, then comes to a prophet to inquire of him concerning Me, I the LORD will answer him by Myself. 8 I will set My face against that man and make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of My people. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.
Jennie,
When we ask God to guide our hearts, He will not let us down. God said, "if you seek me with all your heart, you will surely find me." He did not say "if you study scripture with a fine tooth comb, you will surely find me."
In fact, He even told the Pharisees "you diligently study the scriptures, thinking that by them you possess eternal life. Yet these same scriptures testify about me, and you refuse to come to me to have this life."
Gee, who does that sound like? Jennie perhaps? Jennie, if we go directly to the Jesus the scriptures testify about, we do find and come to know Him. Put the book down for a minute and see the person the book is about.
In fact, He even told the Pharisees "you diligently study the scriptures, thinking that by them you possess eternal life. Yet these same scriptures testify about me, and you refuse to come to me to have this life."
Gee, who does that sound like? Jennie perhaps? Jennie, if we go directly to the Jesus the scriptures testify about, we do find and come to know Him. Put the book down for a minute and see the person the book is about.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Acts 17:10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
These scripture selections actually make Leo's point. "Come to Me", "learn from Me", not "study scripture with a fine tooth comb".
Paul and Silas preached the word without benefit of a New Testament book.
John 14:21 has Jesus saying that keeping the commandments is loving him - far from a sola fide stance.
Christine,
my point in sharing the scripture passages was that Jesus isn't saying we shouldn't search the scriptures; He is saying that it's no good to do this if you don't find Christ in the scriptures and come to Him.
We come to Christ by hearing, or reading, the Word of God and responding in faith. Then we continue to come to Him in scripture, prayer, meeting with the body of Christ, and obedience by faith.
Faith produces obedience to the word of God in which we find His commands. Works without faith are not pleasing to God, and faith without works is dead faith.
Christ IS the Word of God. Scripture is an arrow pointing to Him; tradition is an arrow pointing to Him; the magisterium is an arrow pointing to Him; Mary and the saints are arrows pointing to Him. But all those arrows are not Him.
God's answers are found in all the above places BUT only in order to lead us to The Person who actually was seeking us first and eternally. Jesus Christ - so much more than that which can be reduced to arguments. He, himself, is the Answer.
While we are at all of our praying, let us all pray the Rev. Jones abandons his wacky burn the Koran stunt.
Yes, please, Lord! This is so wrong and dangerous.
Christ IS the Word of God. Scripture is an arrow pointing to Him; tradition is an arrow pointing to Him; the magisterium is an arrow pointing to Him; Mary and the saints are arrows pointing to Him. But all those arrows are not Him.
God's answers are found in all the above places BUT only in order to lead us to The Person who actually was seeking us first and eternally. Jesus Christ - so much more than that which can be reduced to arguments. He, himself, is the Answer.
If Tradition and the Magisterium agree with scripture, then they are arrows pointing to Jesus.
Scripture is definitely an arrow pointing to Him, and the words on the page are not Jesus, but the inspired words come straight from the mind, heart, and mouth of God. God's words are part of Him.
Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward Your holy temple,And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.
I agree that the church should lead us to Jesus, and it does when it stands on His word and proclaims it.
John,
I agree about the Koran burning. I think it's a foolish idea and totally against what Jesus taught His disciples to do. It's a very bad witness.
The pastor says he's canceling his burning plan. Hallelujah, hope he keeps his word.
"If Tradition and the Magisterium agree with scripture, then they are arrows pointing to Jesus."
They do, and they are! That is Catholic doctrine, that there can be no contradiction. You believe there is contradiction, but no one can say that the Church believes that its doctrine CAN contradict scripture. It's all one faith.
I'm thankful to hear that the man has changed his mind.
They do, and they are! That is Catholic doctrine, that there can be no contradiction.
But they do; the Reformation happened for that reason. And the reformers weren't the first to say it and oppose this.
"But they do; the Reformation happened for that reason. And the reformers weren't the first to say it and oppose this."
No, the Reformation happened because people took things into their own hands. Were there abuses in the Church? Of course there were. However, we must always work within God's authority in obedience.
Let's not forget that Jesus commanded His Apostles to obey whatever the Sanhedrin commanded because they sat on the Seat of Moses. He then proceeded to remind them, however, not to do as they did. The interesting thing is that He proceeded to call this same authority "a wicked brood of vipers and whitewashed tombs."
Did they sell indulgences? Yes. Did they do other evil things? Yes. Thus we should not follow their example and we should not do as they did. But, we are still to obey because they have the authority and divinely protected teaching. We do not leave Peter because of the Judases in the Church.
Don't forget Leo, that the Reformers did try to work within the RCC for reform, until they were not welcome anymore, and were forced to leave for various reasons, many because they were being hunted down. Many were imprisoned, tortured and executed.
And the disciples were told to do what the authorities said always with the understanding that what they said must agree with what God says. The Apostles also said, when what the Sanhedrin told them disagreed with God's command, that "We must obey God rather than men."
We must each come to that conclusion by our conscience and God's word, when we are faced with a choice like that. It was not an easy decision for the various Reformers and those that came before them.
For intellectual integrity, you owe to yourself (and your readers) to read one Catholic source for each anti-Catholic source when researching the Reformers. The Reformers unfortunately became the Schismatics.
Atheist secular Concordat Watch; anti-Catholic-focus Beggars All/TurretinFan/JustforCatholics etc. etc. are each giving their version the twist that supports their separation from the Church. Read also what Catholics say in response on their own sites. And what non-partisans historians say.
If you don't do this, you can't claim to be researching or studying anything with the kind of objectivity that can be respected or valid.
Christine,
I've interacted directly with Catholic documents describing Catholic doctrine, and with protestant documents and explanations of protestant doctrines. I don't agree with any of them totally, but the protestants were definitely right in their dependence upon scripture and their basic understanding of salvation and justification which comes from scripture. They also were right in repudiating many Catholic practices. There is an obvious discrepancy when one has been steeped in Scripture and then is exposed to certain Roman Catholic teachings. It is immediately apparent that they are not correct and have no foundation.
This is what happened, generally speaking, when the scriptures became available to scholars in the original Greek and Hebrew, and then were translated into the common languages, so all people could read them. The discrepancies between Catholic practice and Scripture became apparent.
"Became available to scholars in the original languages". When was this, in your mind? What scholars?
Who do you think laboriously copied over and over the scriptures in the original languages? Catholic monks, that's who. Again, I ask you to read broadly - for example "How the Irish Saved Civilization" - this book made me mad sometimes for critiquing the Church in some ways, but it was fascinating in showing how the Church was the guardian of the scriptures and without the monks - who knows?
So where was the Faith before there were literate peoples with common language scriptures in their own hands?
Jennie,
you said "I haven't actually read any of Thomas Merton's books, just quotes from them." I think it might be better if you comment on something you have actually read. I could be wrong, but my impression is your method is to copy and paste from others without actually reading complete original sources. You said as much when discussing Francis Beckwith, Papal Encyclicals, and now Merton. I have read Merton extensively. I have spoken personally with the lay brother that was his driver at Gethsamani. It is true that it is difficult to know where he was going to end up in his spiritual journey. I am not sure myself. That being said his conversion story and journals display an intellectual honesty that was recognized by many, from John XXII to Martin Luther King (King actually was to meet with Merton before he, King, was killed. I would be curious to know what was the last book by a Catholic author you actually read from cover to cover. If you really are sincere about learning about the Church, I would expect you to have read quite a few. If that is not the case, then your supposed quest is a farce.
make that John XXIII
John,
if I were going to do a post on Merton, I would read some of his books, but for the sake of answering one or two comments, I went to Teresa's link and started reading that page. Immediately I found things that stood out to me as being contrary to scripture. That doesn't bode well for the rest of it. I would like to read more of it. There are so many things to read that it's hard to know where to start.
John said: it might be better if you comment on something [like Merton] you have actually read.
Well, you, John, and I introduced Merton so we can't fault Jennie for not being as well-versed as we. I think she's entitled to react to what was quoted.
Gee, what else is new? Again what what the last book by a Catholic auther you actually read from cover to cover?
author. Thinking faster than I type.
the last book by a Catholic auther you actually read from cover to cover?
wink, wink, I hear she's read the Bible.
Again what what the last book by a Catholic auther you actually read from cover to cover?
I haven't read very many books of any kind from cover to cover lately. I read mainly online, having no budget to buy books. I did read as much of Scott Hahn's book 'Rome Sweet Home' as I could find online. I've read quite a few online conversion stories. I've read 'The Return of the Prodigal Son' by Henry Nouwen quite some time ago. I keep thinking I need to make a list and bring it to the library, but I never remember to do that, having 5 girls to herd around while I'm there.
As I said, I read mainly online, and mainly articles, and some books, on subjects that occur to me as I go along. I'm not very systematic about it.
After all, I started out here wanting to find out if it was really true that the RCC was the church that covered all the Western world for hundreds of years, or if there was another consistent presence outside of it and dissenting from it. So I looked for sources that explained the dissenting or other separate traditions. And also, I knew the Catholic Church claimed to be the original church, but so many things in it seemed inconsistent with what I had learned in scripture, that I wanted to see the perspective of protestant historians on that too. I knew what Catholic sources would say, so I went to see if there were other sources. To me, its like evolution. The belief of it has permeated our culture, but it's contrary to scripture. The belief that the RCC was THE church has permeated our culture. What if that's not true either? That's one of the questions I had.
"I knew what Catholic sources would say, so I went to see if there were other sources." Get to the library, read, and give yourself bit of credibility. Perhaps your husband could watch the kiddies. It works for my wife and our five children. You never know, you may discover something that you did not know a Catholic source would say.
Merton's first book is sort of an autobiography, Jennie, but can be read as a novel. He's a great writer even if one doesn't accept his philosophy/theology. I liked his references to Jamestown, NY because I'm originally from there. But I also like his NYC references. I can relate less to his experiences in Europe.
John, what of Merton do you recommend be read? Anything found online?
Nothing online by Merton to speak of but I would start with the Seven Story Mountain. Also, Faith and Violence, any of the journals, Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander, The Asian Journal. He was prolific. Some I agreed with, some not so much, but people that do not read him are missing out on one of the most interesting writers or thinkers of the past century. The biography by Michael Mott is also worth a read.
Anybody read anything by or about Dietrich Bonhoeffer? My husband just read a new bio, very long, about him, and then started reading one of his books, 'The Cost of Discipleship'. I haven't read the bio yet, but it sounds very interesting. My husband has it on Kindle. I need to get one of those. My birthday's coming up soon; maybe I'll get me one.
Here's my husband Eddie's short review of the book. http://gesnipes.blogspot.com/2010/06/review-of-bonhoeffer-pastor-martyr.html
I've read that and "Christ the Center" - long, long time ago. Could bear to be re-read but I suspect the Lutheran/Continent ethos is pretty much lost on me.
I'm not sure if I can explain, but in thinking about whether it's a good or helpful thing to read a book by Merton, who seems to be a man who didn't know which way he was going and didn't know anything for sure, I then compare him to what I know of Bonhoeffer, who knew for sure which Way he was going, and therefore always actively lived by his convictions, and corrected himself by scripture and was sensitive to the leading of God's Spirit and word, so that he always had courage and lived in a way that showed he was on a firm foundation. He understood things that most didn't see until it was too late, and he had the courage to live his convictions unto death.
What legacy did Merton ultimately leave at the end? He was going towards some sort of mystical union that unites all religions, supposedly.
Well, I'll try to read both books and see what I find out.
Jennie,
If you are honestly interested reading books written by Catholics who understand scripture and Church teaching, I would be happy to send you some which are gathering dust. I also have Protestant books, but I am sure you have plenty of those. I also have cassettes and CD's.
Me too!
"What legacy did Merton ultimately leave at the end? He was going towards some sort of mystical union that unites all religions, supposedly.
Well, I'll try to read both books and see what I find out."
Your understanding of Merton is wrong. He has been a favorite target of many Catholics and Protestants. Regardless I am fairly certain he would pose no threat to your brand of Christianity. He is worth the read if only to discover how someone else thinks. Or you can continue to be swayed by all those websites that love to put him down without actually reading in full and in context the source, something you already do quite often.
Good review of the Bonhoeffer book, "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy," in the latest issue of First Things by Charles Chaput. Looks like a good read. Will have get the debit card out.
I believe Bonhoeffer is very much admired by Catholics and Protestants alike.
First Things - I highly recommend this to you, Jennie, and anyone else.
My Dad gets First Things, as a present from my brother.
He likes to read alot and has always been interested in questions of truth. He's an electrical engineer, retired. When I was a girl, after he came to Christ, he studied evolution vs. creation constantly and came to believe in a 6 day creation. He also studied predestination and eternal security for years. After studying he came to believe that predestination must mean something besides God predestining some to eternal punishment and some to eternal life. He also doesn't believe in 'once saved, always saved' but believes one can defect from the faith.
My Dad doesn't go to church because he's so nontraditional and so determined to find and understand truth, but he found that when he expressed his beliefs people would look at him like he had two heads, and think he was heretical. He's not at all; he's just not conventional and thinks very deeply about things that most people don't. I'm a little like him in some ways, but he's much smarter. He's working on some kind of alternative idea to Einstein's work about gravity and light and electrical fields, etc. which I don't even understand enough to explain here.
Anyways, he likes to read the views in the magazine, but he doesn't think any church has got it right. On the other hand, he doesn't think the Catholic Church is any more wrong than any of the others. He's right that most are astray. But I wish and pray he would find a church to gather with and find encouragement from.
Good for your Dad for reading First Things as one of his sources. It's not exclusively Catholic by any means - and seeks to find common ground among Christians of different types and Jews as well. Do you read it? Do you believe finding common ground is worthwhile, or is it more important to highlight differences? Why?
I believe it's important to point out differences when they pertain to the gospel message and may affect people's salvation. There is nothing more important.
Agreed.
Post a Comment