For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty... that no flesh should glory in His presence.... —that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”
1 Corinthians 1:26-31
Unfortunately, this is one of the many failings of 'sola scriptura'. Much time is wasted on nothing.
If you go to Behlehem, the locals know exactly the cave where Jesus was born and this is part of the 'tribal knowledge' of the Church.
In fact, the key places of the events in scripture are well known to the people who live there.
Sola scriptura is like taking a random handful of playing cards and trying to determine from them what a complete deck looks like...
Wait...there are no fours or sevens here...the card with one spot simply cannot have an 'A', since that would not make sense...where would anyone get a crazy idea that a jack would be there? If anything, it would most certainly be called a prince because we have a king and a queen...a joker? you must be kidding...who gave you the authority to add that to the deck? And, by the way, the highest card is clearly an 8, so don't even pretend to go there...
Leo, I disagree that this is a waste of time, and that the outcome of 'sola scriptura' is that we waste our time. All of us can't go to Bethlehem for ourselves and talk to the locals, and even if we could, even long-held traditions are not always accurate. Everything in scripture is there for a reason, and we can glean, or dig out, endless useful treasures from it. Sometimes it is good to go back and look at what really has been said, or not said, in scripture, so that we can shed things that aren't helpful or true, and find more that is helpful to us. We are not to be totally dependent upon what has been taught before outside of scripture, but can find things afresh for ourselves with the help of the Holy Spirit and our teachers, and each other.
"Everything in scripture is there for a reason, and we can glean, or dig out, endless useful treasures from it."
Yes, but we can also endlessly tickle our own ears by misinterpreting it.
"We are not to be totally dependent upon what has been taught before outside of scripture,"
Nor are we to be totally dependent upon scripture outside of Tradition...
"All of us can't go to Bethlehem for ourselves and talk to the locals, and even if we could, even long-held traditions are not always accurate. "
No, but we can all find out if we make a concerted effort. Long-held traditions are typically far more accurate than modern day assumptions about what happened more than 2 millenia ago.
The reason 'sola scriptura' wastes time is that it completely ignores the rich history of the Faith which has been handed down. It results in the continual reinvention of the wheel and most often ends up with a complete or partial misassembly of the finished product due to lack of assembly instructions.
The reason 'sola scriptura' wastes time is that it completely ignores the rich history of the Faith which has been handed down. It results in the continual reinvention of the wheel and most often ends up with a complete or partial misassembly of the finished product due to lack of assembly instructions.
Leo, your analysis seems to be based on a a misconception of what 'Sola Scriptura' means. It does NOT mean that Scripture is the 'only' authority, but the final authority that man has been given from God. It does not mean that we come daily to Scripture forgetting what has been taught to us, as the church and as individuals, over the years and centuries. But it does mean that if we, as individuals or churches, find that some belief or tradition is contrary to scripture, then we can and should let go of that belief and hold to what is true to scripture. Man's understanding can change or become distorted over the years, but God's word stands forever.
"It does NOT mean that Scripture is the 'only' authority, but the final authority that man has been given from God. It does not mean that we come daily to Scripture forgetting what has been taught to us, as the church and as individuals, over the years and centuries."
You have just contradicted yourself. You deny the 2000 year old understanding of the Eucharist precisely because you have forgotten what has been taught...because you are ONLY relying on scripture and the perversion of original truth by the reformers. You deny Mary's role precisely because you are relying only on scripture and those who dissent or protest. Look, Mary has a tomb which has been known for 2000 years and it is empty and has always been empty just as the tomb of Jesus was. And, yes, we know where His tomb is as well.
"Man's understanding can change or become distorted over the years, but God's word stands forever."
Again, you believe in scripture alone. We believe in the Word of God alone. It is a Living Word and speaks to us today.
Jennie - looks like you deleted a comment of yours stating that "scripture alone" is the Word of God, and you deleted my response that Jesus Himself is the Word of God, as Leo has said here also. I don't understand what you are saying now, that you do believe in inspired Tradition?
You two say I've contradicted myself, but I don't think I have; so we must be misunderstanding each other, or you are misunderstanding what 'sola scriptura' really means so you think I am contradicting myself when I'm not. I hope that makes sense. But tell me how I have contradicted myself and I'll try to explain what I mean.
Bringing the discussion from the Seven Storey Mountain thread -
You said: This teaching, that scripture is the only word of which it can be said "the Mouth of the LORD has spoken it", IS scripture. Scripture is the voice of the LORD, so it IS the final authority, outside of any interpretation, even that of the magisterium. The Holy Spirit is able to teach each believer who abides in Christ. Abiding in Christ involves abiding in the word, in fellowship with the body, and in the Spirit. Those things keep us in right relationship with God and give us a right understanding of the truth.
Where does scripture say that "scripture is the ONLY word of which it can be said 'the mouth of the LORD has spoken it'"?
That particular phrase, from Isaiah 40:5, is speaking of JESUS.
"The glory of the Lord shall be revealed; all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
That passage from Isaiah 40 isn't the only place scripture says 'the mouth of the LORD has spoken it', so I wasn't specifically talking about that passage about the incarnation.
Christine, When I say Scripture is the only word we have today of which it can be said 'the Mouth of the LORD has spoken it', I mean that no other word written or spoken by man can be called that. No other word carries God's authority and infallibility. We KNOW that Scripture is God's word inspired directly by the Holy Spirit, but 'Tradition' may or may not be Apostolic. There is no evidence that the popes descend from Peter, nor that this was intended by Christ. All the evidence is against this, as John B. has been showing. There is no legitimate succession but that of Spirit and truth to all the saints.
OK, sorry about that. But aren't you saying two completely different things then and now?
Oh, you mean because I said that scripture is the only word that we have now of which it can be said 'the Mouth of the LORD has spoken it' AND I said that scripture is not the ONLY authority, but IS the FINAL authority? If that's it, then just because something is the final authority doesn't mean it's the only authority. Scripture is the very word of God, directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is whole and complete and internally consistent. Any other words written or passed down by men and called 'Tradition' must be compared to scripture in order to be proved. There are lower authorities established by God, but they are not infallible and are subject to Him and to His word.
OK. But where in scripture are these beliefs: scripture is the only word that we have now of which it can be said 'the Mouth of the LORD has spoken it'
AND
scripture is not the ONLY authority, but IS the FINAL authority?
What other authority do you recognize, besides scripture?
I recognize that the husband is the head of the family, and that Christ is over him. I recognize that pastors/elders are the leaders and teachers of the churches, with Christ over them. Leaving aside civil authorities, that is pretty much it.
17 comments:
Unfortunately, this is one of the many failings of 'sola scriptura'. Much time is wasted on nothing.
If you go to Behlehem, the locals know exactly the cave where Jesus was born and this is part of the 'tribal knowledge' of the Church.
In fact, the key places of the events in scripture are well known to the people who live there.
Sola scriptura is like taking a random handful of playing cards and trying to determine from them what a complete deck looks like...
Wait...there are no fours or sevens here...the card with one spot simply cannot have an 'A', since that would not make sense...where would anyone get a crazy idea that a jack would be there? If anything, it would most certainly be called a prince because we have a king and a queen...a joker? you must be kidding...who gave you the authority to add that to the deck? And, by the way, the highest card is clearly an 8, so don't even pretend to go there...
Leo,
I disagree that this is a waste of time, and that the outcome of 'sola scriptura' is that we waste our time.
All of us can't go to Bethlehem for ourselves and talk to the locals, and even if we could, even long-held traditions are not always accurate.
Everything in scripture is there for a reason, and we can glean, or dig out, endless useful treasures from it. Sometimes it is good to go back and look at what really has been said, or not said, in scripture, so that we can shed things that aren't helpful or true, and find more that is helpful to us. We are not to be totally dependent upon what has been taught before outside of scripture, but can find things afresh for ourselves with the help of the Holy Spirit and our teachers, and each other.
"Everything in scripture is there for a reason, and we can glean, or dig out, endless useful treasures from it."
Yes, but we can also endlessly tickle our own ears by misinterpreting it.
"We are not to be totally dependent upon what has been taught before outside of scripture,"
Nor are we to be totally dependent upon scripture outside of Tradition...
"All of us can't go to Bethlehem for ourselves and talk to the locals, and even if we could, even long-held traditions are not always accurate. "
No, but we can all find out if we make a concerted effort. Long-held traditions are typically far more accurate than modern day assumptions about what happened more than 2 millenia ago.
The reason 'sola scriptura' wastes time is that it completely ignores the rich history of the Faith which has been handed down. It results in the continual reinvention of the wheel and most often ends up with a complete or partial misassembly of the finished product due to lack of assembly instructions.
The reason 'sola scriptura' wastes time is that it completely ignores the rich history of the Faith which has been handed down. It results in the continual reinvention of the wheel and most often ends up with a complete or partial misassembly of the finished product due to lack of assembly instructions.
Leo,
your analysis seems to be based on a a misconception of what 'Sola Scriptura' means. It does NOT mean that Scripture is the 'only' authority, but the final authority that man has been given from God.
It does not mean that we come daily to Scripture forgetting what has been taught to us, as the church and as individuals, over the years and centuries. But it does mean that if we, as individuals or churches, find that some belief or tradition is contrary to scripture, then we can and should let go of that belief and hold to what is true to scripture. Man's understanding can change or become distorted over the years, but God's word stands forever.
"It does NOT mean that Scripture is the 'only' authority, but the final authority that man has been given from God.
It does not mean that we come daily to Scripture forgetting what has been taught to us, as the church and as individuals, over the years and centuries."
You have just contradicted yourself. You deny the 2000 year old understanding of the Eucharist precisely because you have forgotten what has been taught...because you are ONLY relying on scripture and the perversion of original truth by the reformers. You deny Mary's role precisely because you are relying only on scripture and those who dissent or protest. Look, Mary has a tomb which has been known for 2000 years and it is empty and has always been empty just as the tomb of Jesus was. And, yes, we know where His tomb is as well.
"Man's understanding can change or become distorted over the years, but God's word stands forever."
Again, you believe in scripture alone. We believe in the Word of God alone. It is a Living Word and speaks to us today.
Jennie - looks like you deleted a comment of yours stating that "scripture alone" is the Word of God, and you deleted my response that Jesus Himself is the Word of God, as Leo has said here also. I don't understand what you are saying now, that you do believe in inspired Tradition?
Christine,
I think those comments were under the 'Seven Storey Mountain' post, not this one. They are still there.
OK, sorry about that. But aren't you saying two completely different things then and now?
You two say I've contradicted myself, but I don't think I have; so we must be misunderstanding each other, or you are misunderstanding what 'sola scriptura' really means so you think I am contradicting myself when I'm not. I hope that makes sense. But tell me how I have contradicted myself and I'll try to explain what I mean.
Bringing the discussion from the Seven Storey Mountain thread -
You said: This teaching, that scripture is the only word of which it can be said "the Mouth of the LORD has spoken it", IS scripture. Scripture is the voice of the LORD, so it IS the final authority, outside of any interpretation, even that of the magisterium. The Holy Spirit is able to teach each believer who abides in Christ. Abiding in Christ involves abiding in the word, in fellowship with the body, and in the Spirit. Those things keep us in right relationship with God and give us a right understanding of the truth.
Where does scripture say that "scripture is the ONLY word of which it can be said 'the mouth of the LORD has spoken it'"?
That particular phrase, from Isaiah 40:5, is speaking of JESUS.
"The glory of the Lord shall be revealed; all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
That is a prophecy of the Incarnation.
That passage from Isaiah 40 isn't the only place scripture says 'the mouth of the LORD has spoken it', so I wasn't specifically talking about that passage about the incarnation.
Can you expand on that a bit? I don't understand.
Christine,
When I say Scripture is the only word we have today of which it can be said 'the Mouth of the LORD has spoken it', I mean that no other word written or spoken by man can be called that. No other word carries God's authority and infallibility. We KNOW that Scripture is God's word inspired directly by the Holy Spirit, but 'Tradition' may or may not be Apostolic. There is no evidence that the popes descend from Peter, nor that this was intended by Christ. All the evidence is against this, as John B. has been showing. There is no legitimate succession but that of Spirit and truth to all the saints.
So, we can't say that what the popes taught is correct without comparing it to the sure word of Scripture.
OK, sorry about that. But aren't you saying two completely different things then and now?
Oh, you mean because I said that scripture is the only word that we have now of which it can be said 'the Mouth of the LORD has spoken it' AND I said that scripture is not the ONLY authority, but IS the FINAL authority? If that's it, then just because something is the final authority doesn't mean it's the only authority. Scripture is the very word of God, directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is whole and complete and internally consistent. Any other words written or passed down by men and called 'Tradition' must be compared to scripture in order to be proved. There are lower authorities established by God, but they are not infallible and are subject to Him and to His word.
OK. But where in scripture are these beliefs: scripture is the only word that we have now of which it can be said 'the Mouth of the LORD has spoken it'
AND
scripture is not the ONLY authority, but IS the FINAL authority?
What other authority do you recognize, besides scripture?
I recognize that the husband is the head of the family, and that Christ is over him.
I recognize that pastors/elders are the leaders and teachers of the churches, with Christ over them.
Leaving aside civil authorities, that is pretty much it.
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