Friday, August 13, 2010
The Christianity of Thomas Jefferson: Britt Mooney
Here's a good post by Britt Mooney about Thomas Jefferson's Christianity. Apparently there is alot of misinformation about Jefferson out there, because I thought he was a deist who didn't believe in the miracles of Christ. From the quotes Britt gives it appears Jefferson was a true Christian, and also one who didn't accept the institutional Christianity of his day. Some of what he describes as things added to Christ's pure doctrines sounds alot like Roman Catholicism, and probably also applied to the Church of England as well. This is very exciting to me, and I would like to read the book that Britt mentions to find out more about Jefferson.
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17 comments:
Yeah, the thing is I think his focus was on the moral teachings, which is pretty Deist, but at the same time I can't find anything where he was necessarily against the rest of scripture or miracles. I definitely see some Deist leanings, but I would hesitate to consider him one in the strictest sense. If I come across anything where he is clearly against the "miracles" or whatever, I'll share.
I think the misinformation that is important to me is placing an idea of separation of church and state upon him he didn't have. He believed in religious tolerance and freedom and the necessary part that religion plays within society and government. He never would have supported the outright exclusion of any mention of God that modern "progressives" are pushing, and succeeding to some degree.
Claiming Christ's "doctrines" and yet denying the incarnation and the resurrection does not make one a Christian in any historically meaningful sense of the term. Jefferson was a moralist, apparently thoroughly Pelagian, and certainly not a Christian.
captcha: reedemi
If Jefferson did deny those things, then I would doubt his Christianity, but is that true?
Jefferson was one of two deists, arguably, along with Benjamin Franklin. Well, guess who the left always promotes and talks about to show that the founding fathers were not really Christians...Satan has his hands in everything.
Patrick Henry, who said, "Give me liberty or give me death", also said, " This nation was not founded by religionists, but by Christians. It is not based on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
James Madison, author of the Constitution, wrote, "This document is only adequate for the governance of a religious and Godly people who obey the Ten Commandments. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other people."
Leo,
the founding fathers also understood that the papacy, and those who swear allegiance to it, is not compatible with the government of the republic that they envisioned and fought for.
Jennie,
Catholics were persecuted for many years in our country, because they also did not understand the Truth.
Jennie, you said,"the founding fathers also understood that the papacy, and those who swear allegiance to it, is not compatible with the government of the republic that they envisioned and fought for." Sometimes you are a bit scary. You sound like you would have been right at home with the "no-nothing movement" or perhaps the KKK.
John,
why don't you go read the words of the founding fathers on what they thought about the papacy and why before you start accusing me of being a bigot. I don't have any problem with individual Catholics being in our country or holding office. I do have a problem with the papacy having any kind of control in our government.
Leo,
I think you should also do as i suggested to John.
Also I think you need to understand that people came to this country to escape the church/state union that did not allow them freedom of religion. Though I question the actions of the puritans in then coming and setting up their own sort of theocracies, I understand the distrust that many had of the papacy that would make them not want it to get a hold here.
I think the Catholic Church would do much better without the papacy. This would allow us to learn from each other as scripture and the Holy Spirit lead us, with local pastors as teachers and shepherds. I think the founders didn't have problems with individual catholics being Christians, but with the power structure and the allegiance to the papacy which IS incompatible with our form of government.
Jennie - the Puritans were fleeing the Church of England, not the Catholic Church. My own ancestors came to this country from Sweden to escape that government's official Lutheran Church. So stop it for goodness' sake. You have to try to know what you're talking about. The papacy doesn't prevent us from learning from Scripture and each other - but unreasonable attacks, and so much not listening do.
I did not call you a bigot. However there are times when I think you use language and make statements like the one I just quoted that I am reminded that the same language is and was certainly used in the past to pepetuate the bigotry that is so much a part of the history of this country. No, I do not think you are a bigot, just ill informed and sadly so. I can remember once in the '60's as a child watching the evening news when a report on a Klan rally was aired. I remember the Klan member stating quite clearly that the biggest threats to this country are n____gers, jews, and catholics. I thought to myself at the time, wow, I am Catholic, are there really people out there that think that way? By the way, I do not think the founders envisioned an America with women having the right to vote, but I think we can all agree that that is a good thing. And what control of our government does the Church control?
Christine,
I know the puritans were fleeing the Church of England, but the puritans were also very familiar with the papacy, since their country had only recently separated from the Catholic church and there were still political struggles between those who wanted Catholic control and those who wanted the Church of England or a Puritan government. I don't think any of them should have been linked to the government, but that was the way people thought then. The Church of England was in many ways very similar to Catholicism, and continued to exercise the same kind of control over people's religion. That is why there was a continued distrust in our country for the papacy. It is very ironic that the puritans came and set up their own governments that didn't allow freedom of worship, and they persecuted Baptists and other Bible believers that didn't submit to them. It's wrong on all sides.
Look up the posts on Christian liberty and see what the papacy is doing in places where it has a majority and has a concordat with the government. You believe that the papacy is infallible, but instead it is corrupted by power and always has been.
I would never advocate hurting people or restricting their freedom. I just want Catholics to wake up and see what the government of their church is like and has been like, with some exceptions, since Roman bishops first sought power. Then we can see what unity is really meant to be.
I am so pleased to hear you do not have a problem with "individual Catholics" being in this country. Now substitute blacks in your statement and I think it is possible to see the potential bigotry in that statement. Again, what in our government is the Church controlling or seeking to control?
John, since you're the one who implied I am like the KKK, you should know that I made that statement in response to being compared to bigoted people. I am saying that my concern is with governments and hierarchies, and I don't have any personal problem with any individual or group.
The point is your individual catholics statement is exactly the kind of statement that the groups I cited used to persecute Catholics in this country. That is why find it somewhat offensive.
"I think the Catholic Church would do much better without the papacy."
Of course you do...you hate the concept of absolute truth and needing to align yourself with it. You are desperately trying to forget that it is the KINGDOM of God and NOT the democracy of God.
" Look up the posts on Christian liberty and see what the papacy is doing in places where it has a majority and has a concordat with the government. You believe that the papacy is infallible, but instead it is corrupted by power and always has been."
Oh, look, I have posted it and thus it is true...please, no need to bow to my brilliance, when a simple nod of the head will do...
So tell me, oh wise one, just where is the papacy corrupted by power today, just as it 'always has been'?
The Church clearly teaches that true freedom is the freedom to live according to God's will and that each person has the right to believe as they wish. In fact, we are compelled as Catholics to respect all religions, recognizing that they have their basis in God. In fact, I would just like to hear one example where the Holy Father has disparaged anyone in our lifetimes.
It's much harder when you have to deal with the facts and cannot twist them to suit your liking. Although you are an accomplished scripture pretzel maker, there is no such thing as a fact pretzel.
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