Tuesday, August 04, 2009

Exchangedlife.com: Examining Predestination and Calvinism

My husband Eddie has just completed a study on predestination which is available on his website, exchangedlife.com. In the study, my husband looks at the issue of predestination from a Biblical perspective, hoping to resolve the conflicts between opposing camps on this subject. The study examines the scriptures that indicate free will and those that affirm the sovereignty of God and shows that these do not disagree.

NOTE: My husband is transferring his website to another location, so while this is being done, please look for the link here; then click on 'Bible Studies' and find the study on 'Examining Predestination and Calvinism' with the date '08/2009'.

123 comments:

Moonshadow said...

Presumptuous of him to accuse sectarians of carnality. While Calvinists don't shun the name, Reformed may be preferred. And "Free Will" for the others.

Synergism is the belief that a person is born again by a combination of free human will and divine grace.

If his definition is correct (and I'm not convinced it is), then a church that baptizes infants could not hold to synergism as regards regeneration.

‘world’ is mentioned 241 times in the New Testament and it never once identifies this as the church or the elect.

The Calvinist looks no further than John 3:17 for the scope or definition of "world":

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (NIV)

Unless you're a universalist :-)

1 Tim. 4:10 is another universalist passage. At the end of M. Eugene Boring's (a good Baptist) commentary on Revelation, he lists about 20 verses that speak of "God's mercy towards all." He says there's a paradox, a tension that much be maintained, in order to be faithful to Scripture. I don't think it's an easy thing to maintain. Other verses, John 12:32 and Romans 11:32.

To them (those who received Jesus), He gave the right to become the children of God.

ἐξουσία - "power, authority, right, liberty, jurisdiction, strength"

We know that God rejects those of whom He has made Himself manifest, but they chose the lie and pleasures of sin over the truth.

And the principle way in the church age that God has made Himself manifest is in the Eucharist. And people chose to disbelieve it.

Never does the Bible tell us to conform our will to God; the Bible always tells us to die to ourselves and our will, and submit to the will of God.

I don't see the distinction he's trying to make. Rom. 8:29.

There is no merit in letting go for we have not worked for anything. Letting go is not an act of the will, but releasing our will so we can submit to the drawing of God.

This is ok.

The Bible tells us that in Adam, all die, but in Christ, many are made alive.

Actually, the Bible tells us that,

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Cor. 15:22. We're all about letting Scripture speak for itself.

he merely submits to God.

Sounds like Islam.

Calvinists try to lump Catholics with Arminians, but the Arminians don't want us, of course. Semipelagianism at Wiki. Catholics are theological "mutts" ... that's why we get along so good with Baptists. :-)

Jennie said...

Teresa (moonshadow),
The Bible tells us that in Adam, all die, but in Christ, many are made alive.

Actually, the Bible tells us that,

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Cor. 15:22. We're all about letting Scripture speak for itself.


In Romans 5:19 it says:
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
The bible says both many and all, but not in the same verse, apparently. In order that there be no misunderstanding, my husband said he will correct the statement to use both words the same.

Jennie said...

‘world’ is mentioned 241 times in the New Testament and it never once identifies this as the church or the elect.

The Calvinist looks no further than John 3:17 for the scope or definition of "world":

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (NIV)

Unless you're a universalist :-)


He did die to save the world, and that is their sin and condemnation, that they did not receive Him when He made provision for them to gain forgiveness of sins and be children of God.

Moonshadow said...

In order that there be no misunderstanding, my husband said he will correct the statement

That's fine.

I mean, Romans 5:18 & 19 has "all" in the first verse and "many" in the second. I just felt 1 Cor. 15:22 was misquoted, not that Scripture doesn't say the same elsewhere.

Moonshadow said...

Let me say that the Calvinist may also see in John 3:17 a redemption of the created world - nature, etc.

Paul said...

DAVID CHANSKI, successor of Albert N. Martin at Trinity Baptist Church of Montville, NJ will address the theme: "HYPER CALVINISM: Contrasting Historic Reformed Theology with its Counterfeits".

Many if not most Evangelicals who are NOT themselves "Calvinists", or, believers in the doctrine that God has total, sovereign control over ALL things, including the salvation of men, frequently erroneously apply the disparaging term "HYPER-Calvinist" to EVERYONE who believes in the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. Pastor David Chanski, who strongly affirms ALL "Five Points of Calvinism", will set out to prove that this improper use of a derogatory label is reckless behavior, and reveals that those who do so are uninformed or misinformed (and so-called scholars who do so have no excuse). Today's broadcast is also intended to steer those professing to be Calvinists away from the deadly cliff of genuine Hyper-Calvinism.

http://sharpens.blogspot.com/2009/08/david-chanski-hyper-calvinism.html

The Squirrel said...

Jennie,

Just FYI, I'm not avoiding this discussion, but I started a new job today, and real live is intruding on the blogosphere. I'm sure you understand.

:o)

~Squirrel

Jennie said...

Squirrel,
Thanks, I hope your new job works out well. I'll be praying for you.

Jennie said...

Paul,
Oh dear; is the phrase 'hyper Calvinist' all that struck you in Eddie's whole message?

Jennie said...

And the principle way in the church age that God has made Himself manifest is in the Eucharist. And people chose to disbelieve it.

I've got to disagree with you here. Christ made himself manifest by coming in the flesh and showing us the Father, and by dying and rising again. Then He made himself manifest in His word being preached and written, and by the Spirit being given to the believers, who show Him forth in their lives by faith. The eucharist is a secondary reminder to believers to remember His death and look forward to His return. It is not the center; Christ Himself is; He Himself is our Bread.

Paul said...

Jennie said:
"Paul,
Oh dear; is the phrase 'hyper Calvinist' all that struck you in Eddie's whole message?"

No Jennie, I read all of part one when it was part one of two. I have plenty to comment on. It was just interesting that Chris Arnzen interviewed David Chanski on the confusion over Hyper-Calvinism. I noticed that Eddie did not give a clear definition of Hyper-Calvinism nor a comparison of the two. Also I am curious as to whether you or Eddie watched that video of James White exegeting John 3:16. Because I am hoping to use it when addressing some of Eddie's assertions regarding John 3.

Leo said...

Jennie said...

"I've got to disagree with you here. It is not the center; Christ Himself is; He Himself is our Bread."

Jennie,

That is precisely the point you are missing. The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ: Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. This was believed from the beginning and is alluded to all over Scripture.

Moonshadow said...

The whole piece is about God reaching out to men and men rejecting God.

The piece isn't about men concocting a phony manifestation of God.

But I was wrong not to mention Scripture in the same breath as the eucharist ... I almost corrected myself in a quick comment but hoped my oversight would be forgiven. I just take as a given the centrality of Scripture as principle revelation.

Is there a difference between "manifestation" and "revelation"? I'm not sure.

Jennie said...

Leo,
That is precisely the point you are missing. The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ: Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. This was believed from the beginning and is alluded to all over Scripture.
What is alluded to all over scripture is that Jesus' death is our salvation, and He is our Bread, our Rock, our Shepherd, our
King, our Door to heaven, etc. The foreshadowings are pointing to Jesus Himself, not to the bread that represents Him. In the same way that Passover foreshadows Christ's death as the Lamb of God, the Lord's Supper looks back on it. Both are pictures for His peoples' benefit. They are done in obedience and remembrance. The original Passover in Egypt was the only one that saved the Israelites from the Angel of death; the future ones were for remembrance. The death of Christ on the Cross was the only sacrifice that saves all who believe in Him; the future Suppers are for remembrance, not salvation. He is the Lamb and the Bread; the lamb and the bread are not He. See my earlier post on John 6:

http://pilgrimsdaughter.blogspot.com/2009/04/i-am-bread-of-life.html

Moonshadow said...

watched that video of James White exegeting John 3:16.

Do you have a link to that video, Paul? I haven't seen it and would like to.

Thank you.

Paul said...

Moonshadow said:

"watched that video of James White exegeting John 3:16.

Do you have a link to that video, Paul? I haven't seen it and would like to.

Thank you."

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUVeorKy0HM&feature=PlayList&p=090468E85C40DEE2&index=3

Moonshadow said...

Yeah, good, thank you.

So he's got a problem with the King James. Well that's nothing new.

The New American Bible (which he doesn't recommend, either) has John 3:16 translated correctly (IOW, as he prefers) -

everyone who believes

Jennie said...

Paul,
I have watched the video several times, and Eddie was there with me a couple of the times. I certainly agree that John 3:16 teaches that only those who believe have eternal life, but I didn't see any convincing explanation saying that 'God so loved the world' doesn't mean He loved the whole world, not just the elect. In many places the bible says Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. It says in
1 Timothy 4:10
10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Jennie said...

Leo,
The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ: Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

If the Eucharist IS Jesus, then He has had to suffer bearing our sins millions of times since He died on the cross almost 2000 years ago. In Hebrews 9 it says: 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Notice it says 'ONCE for all, HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION.'

In verse 22 it says: And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
The eucharist is called an 'unbloody sacrifice' yet there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. If it is considered an actual sacrifice for sin, then it is useless. Only Jesus' death on the cross, done once, is effective for salvation.

In verses 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

Here it says that He does NOT have to offer Himself often as the high priests of old made offerings, otherwise 'He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
This clearly contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church, which says that the eucharist is a sacrifice for sins, but then says it is unbloody, which nullifies its usefullness, giving people who trust in it no hope.

That is why I object to the catholic teaching on the Eucharist.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

"For God so loved the kosmos, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16, KJV, Greek word substitution supplied).


Of course God loves the world (the kosmos) - He made it!

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is (Exodus 20:11a).

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters (Revelation 14:6-7).

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons,the redemption of our body (Romans 8:19-23).


This is not universalism as some call it, but that God has given opportunity to every man, woman, and child regardless of socioeconomic status, race, ethnicity, or sin, to repent and turn away from sin, and accept the pardon offered through Christ, and to become partakers of the coming eternal kingdom of Christ.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Jennie,

1 John 2:15-17 may be problematic for some.

1 John 2:15-17, NASB:

15Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.


It seems to contradict the other passages. Some good exegesis is needed here. Any thoughts? I have mine own, but I will not presume to have the full answer.

Paul said...

Jennie said:
"Paul,
I have watched the video several times, and Eddie was there with me a couple of the times. I certainly agree that John 3:16 teaches that only those who believe have eternal life, but I didn't see any convincing explanation saying that 'God so loved the world' doesn't mean He loved the whole world, not just the elect."

Jennie:
James White addresses this here.

The Meaning and Extent of kosmos
The great controversy that rages around the term “world” is wholly unnecessary. The wide range of uses of kosmos (world) in the Johannine corpus is well known. John 3:16 does not define the extent of kosmos. However, a few things are certain: it is not the “world” that Jesus says He does not pray for in John 17:9, a “world” that is differentiated from those the Father has given Him: “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours.” It is not the “world” that is arrayed as an enemy against God’s will and truth, either, as seen in 1 John 2:15: “Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” Obviously, the “world” we are not to love in 1 John 2:15 is not the world God showed His love toward by sending His unique Son. The most that can be said by means of exegesis (rather than by insertion via tradition) is that the world is shown love through the giving of the Son so that a specific, particular people receive eternal life through faith in Him. Since we know that not all are saved by faith in Christ, it is utterly unwarranted to read into kosmos some universal view of humanity: how is God’s love shown for one who experiences eternal punishment by the provision of salvation for someone else? Surely, then, this is a general use of kosmos, with more specific uses of the term coming in the following verses. That is, the common meaning of world that would have suggested itself to the original readers (Jew and Gentile), and this is born out by the parallel passage in 1 John 4, as we will see below.

source:
http://vintage.aomin.org/DHOpenLetter.html

Jennie said...

Hillary (Daughter of Wisdom),
1 John 2:15-17 may be problematic for some.

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I can give my thoughts. I wonder how many different connotations the word 'world' has, first of all. Then I would say that God is free to love the created world including the people in it, while commanding us not to love the world more than we love Him; or not to love the world system that offers us pleasures, power, etc., which are the deceitful lusts of the world that we are in danger of idolizing. God can love what we cannot. He is not in danger of sin.

Jennie said...

Paul,
James White did not 'exegete' those passgages. He forced his own meaning into them by insisting it could not be the same world, when the word is the same. He says "A few things are certain" and makes statements with no support.

Lockheed said...

"James White did not 'exegete' those passgages. He forced his own meaning into them by insisting it could not be the same world, when the word is the same."

I see and what textual, contextual and grammatical evidence can you provide to state the opposite? Seems to me Dr. White provided a clear exegetical response and the Arminians were left saying "god is lovvvveee" type stuff, which has no bearing on the context at all.

Sorry, there's only so much skubalon a guy can take.

Jennie said...

Lockheed,
what about John chapter 1?
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It says, the world did not know Him, but to those who believe in His name He gives the right to become children of God. They are born of the will of God, because they submitted their will to God in faith.
John repeatedly uses the word 'world' meaning everyone, as opposed to those who receive Him and become separate from the world.

John 1:9
That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


John 4:42
Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

John 6:14
Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”

John 6:33
For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

John 7:4
For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.”

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

Jennie said...

John 8:12
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

John 8:23
And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:26
I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

John 9:32
Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind.

John 9:39
And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”

John 10:36
do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

John 11:9
Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.

John 11:27
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

John 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, “You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!”

John 12:25
He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

John 12:46
I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.

John 12:47
And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

John 13:1
[ Jesus Washes the Disciples’ Feet ] Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:19
[ Indwelling of the Father and the Son ] “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.

John 14:22
Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 14:30
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

John 14:31
But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

continued

Jennie said...

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:11
of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

John 16:20
Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy.
John 16:21
A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.
John 16:25
[ Jesus Christ Has Overcome the World ] “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

John 16:28
I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17:6
[ Jesus Prays for His Disciples ] “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

John 17:9
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

John 17:11
Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:13
But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves.

John 17:14
I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them

Jennie said...

from the evil one.

John 17:16
They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

John 17:18
As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

John 17:21
that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
John 17:23
I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

John 17:24
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

John 17:25
O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.

John 18:20
Jesus answered him, “I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

• John 18:37
Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

Whew!

Moonshadow said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Moonshadow said...

God can love what we cannot.

First of all, I say this with sincere conviction, that we ought to be careful in persuading a Calvinist that God is "kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil" (Luke 6:35) because that leads a Calvinist to universalism. If Grace is True: Why God Will Save Every Person was written by two former Calvinists.

Moonshadow said...

the common meaning of world that would have suggested itself to the original readers (Jew and Gentile)

I have Kostenberger's commentary on John's Gospel here, for what it's worth, because the plan is to study this Gospel at a PCA church this fall. I want to be ready for these sorts of interpretations. :-)

Kostenberger's explains the apparent universality of 3:!6 in the typical Reformed way, page 128: reading Paul's Letter to the Romans, e.g., 1:16 - I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.) into John 3:16. As our commenter Paul has also done.

I agree with Dr. White that John 3:16 is not "the gospel in a nutshell" that it is sometimes purported to be. John 6:44 is isolated from 6:45 ... and 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

One even gets something like what our commenter Paul says, from Spurgeon, which I've quoted before (from Blue Letter Bible):

... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).

If I may say, the only place "all" is taken to mean "all" is Romans 3:23. :-)

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Okay, I knew this would happen.

Jennie proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the word "world" means everything and everyone in it by all the scriptures quoted, based upon both meaning and context. God just does not love only those who are saved, for if that was the case, then no one would obtain salvation for "all have sinned" (Romans 3:23). Another thing, God has shown His love towards mankind by sending His Son to die for us while we were still sinners (Romans 5:8). In addition, Jesus's death on the cross provided reconciliation for the world, so that all would have opportunity for salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20

18And ALL things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20Now then WE ARE AMBASSADORS for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God
(Caps supplied).

The above passage proves that reconciliation is for the WORLD, and truly the ministry of reconciliation is for the benefit of the WORLD, where we as Christians are ambassadors in promoting this reconciliation. Just think, how could reconciliation be for holy people who have never sinned? Or for people who are your favorites? Just think, of a teacher's pet: The teacher's pet will get away with anything, even if they do wrong, because that person is the teacher's pet, and as such needs no reconciliation. The other students who are not the teacher's pet get punished for the same wrongs committed by the teacher's pet, and thus need reconciliation to win back the favor of the teacher.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Now the passage:

1 John 2:15-17, NASB:

15Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.


The proper exegesis of this passage lies not in the word "world" but in the word "love." You know in the English language, the word "love" has multiple meanings and connotations. We love our family, love pizza, love our jobs, love music, etc. Well, it is the same in Greek. The word translated "love," here in the text, is the Greek word agapao, which is not to be confused with agape. This word agapao means "to love (in a social or moral sense)" per Strong's Concordance, #25.

So you see, God is admonishing us not to love the social mores, the materialism, and morality of the world. He is not saying we should not love the people in the world or what He has created for us to enjoy in the world.

Peace and blessings. :-)

Jennie said...

I agree with Dr. White that John 3:16 is not "the gospel in a nutshell" that it is sometimes purported to be. John 6:44 is isolated from 6:45 ... and 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

All those passages can be explained together. Jesus says He will draw all men to Himself, and that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. He says those who have heard and learned from the Father come to Him. As I've seen argued, the Greek word for draws can mean dragged or can also mean a more gentle pulling. Maybe it depends upon whether the person is rebelling or submitting whether it is 'being dragged kicking and screaming' or 'being genltly drawn'. The person who is rebelling, unless they finally submit in this life as some have, will be lost. The person who submits is saved by God's grace through faith. That is what Eddie has been trying to say in this study.

Jennie said...

... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858)
Yes, but the passage Spurgeon is using is in contrast with the others. It is only a figure of speech, used by someone who hated Jesus: 'The whole world is gone after Him.' All the other passages are really saying that He came to save the world, but the world, except for those who believe, did not receive Him. Even all of those who 'went after Him' in Spurgeon's passage didn't finally believe, but deserted Him after their curiosity was satisfied.

Paul said...

A Parallel Passage

1 John 4:7-10 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

This passage provides us with a tremendous commentary, from John himself, on the passage we have just examined from his Gospel. The repetition of key phrases in the same contexts show us how closely related the two passages are. Both passages speak of God’s love; both speak of God’s sending of His Son and how this is a manifestation of God’s love; both speak of life and the forgiveness of sin, often using the very same words John used to record John 3:16ff. So how did the Apostle John understand those words? Here we are given that insight.
The context of this passage is love among believers. Love comes from God, and it is natural for the one who has been born of God to love. The redeemed person loves because God is love, and those who know God seek to be like Him. Those who do not walk in love are betraying any claim they may make to know Him. This brings us to the key verses, 9-10.
The fact that verse nine is meant to be a restatement of John 3:16 can be seen by placing them in parallel to one another:

Paul said...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world
1 John 4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us

John 3:16 that He gave His only begotten Son
1 John 4:9 that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world

John 3:16 that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life
1 John 4:9 so that we might live through Him

Once we see the clear connection, and recognize the background of John’s words, we can use 1 John 4:9 to shed light upon some of the key issues regarding the proper interpretation of John 3:16ff. For example, we concluded above that “world” meant the world of humanity, i.e., Jew and Gentile taken in kind and not in universal particularity (each and every person). This is confirmed by John’s rephrasing here, “By this the love of God was manifested to us.” The “us” in this immediate context is identified in verse 7, “Beloved, let us love one another,” i.e., the Christian fellowship, which is made up of Jews and Gentiles. Further, the issue of the intention of God in sending the Son is further illuminated by noting the teaching of 1 John as well. That is, John 3:17 says it was the Father’s intention to save the world through Christ. This we know Christ accomplished (Revelation 5:9-10) by saving men from every tribe, tongue, people and nation (this comprising the same group seen in John 6:37 who are given by the Father to the Son). 1 John 4:10 summarizes the entire work of God by saying that God’s love is shown in His sending Christ as the propitiation for our sins. This is paralleled here with verse 9, “God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.” This helps to explain the oft-cited words of 1 John 2:2. The “whole world” of 1 John 2:2 would carry the same meaning we have already seen: the whole world of Jew and Gentile. The thrust of 1 John 2:2 is that there are more who will experience the benefit of Christ’s propitiatory death than just the current Christian communion. The message continues to move out into the world, and as it does so, God draws His elect unto Himself, those that He joined to Jesus Christ so that His death is their death, His resurrection their resurrection. But in none of these passages do we find any reference to a work of Christ that is non-specific and universal with reference to individuals, let alone one that is not perfectly accomplished. God’s manifestation of His love does not fail.

Moonshadow said...

I think what Paul did is very well done.

Paul said...

Moonshadow said:
God can love what we cannot.

First of all, I say this with sincere conviction, that we ought to be careful in persuading a Calvinist that God is "kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil" (Luke 6:35) because that leads a Calvinist to universalism. If Grace is True: Why God Will Save Every Person was written by two former Calvinists.
----------

Moonshadow
Calvinists do believe that God does love every human being in "some" way. We call this "common grace". We do not believe that He loves all persons in the "same" way. And His "electing" love is not based on anything inherent in the creature.
Ro. 9:16
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy.

Paul said...

Moonshadow said:
"I think what Paul did is very well done."

-----------------
Thank You.
But this was also from James White's "Open Letter To Dave Hunt".

Moonshadow said...

We call this "common grace".

Yes, I realize the concept is needed to temper "total depravity" but I can do without either.

However, if pressed, I would admit to "actual grace" and "sanctifying grace" - a similar concept from a (Roman) Catholic context (Wiki)

Peace of Christ to you.

Paul said...

Common Grace refers to the grace of God that is common to all humankind. It is "common" because its benefits are experienced by the whole human race without distinction between one person and another. It is "grace" because it is undeserved and sovereignly bestowed by God. In this sense, it is distinguished from the Calvinistic understanding of "special" or "saving" grace, which extends only to those whom God has chosen to redeem.

http://www.theopedia.com/Common_grace

Acts 14:17
Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.”

Jennie said...

Calvinists do believe that God does love every human being in "some" way. We call this "common grace". We do not believe that He loves all persons in the "same" way. And His "electing" love is not based on anything inherent in the creature.
Ro. 9:16
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy.


I agree with the last statement, but I don't agree that the verses you explained prove that Christ only died for the elect. See 1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Paul said...

Jennie said:
I agree with the last statement, but I don't agree that the verses you explained prove that Christ only died for the elect. See 1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
-------------

Jennie, are you saying that Christ propitiated the sins of every human that ever lived?

Jennie said...

Paul,
Are you arguing with the verse or with me?
It says He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
It doesn't say the whole world will accept His propitiation. It isn't effective unless we submit to it by faith.

Moonshadow said...

He's just going to lead you through 1 John 4 again, Jennie.

This is what happens when we use Scripture to interpret Scripture ... principles get suppressed and assimilated.

Jennie said...

Teresa,
This is what happens when we use Scripture to interpret Scripture ... principles get suppressed and assimilated.

No. Things get confusing when people deny the plain meaning of a passage, and ignore some passages that don't agree with their doctrines. We all need to learn to use the whole of scripture to interpret passages, and keep them in context. I'm sure none of us is completely correct. Don't forget we grow into unity as we grow in Him. Eph. 4.

Moonshadow said...

by saving men from every tribe, tongue, people and nation

And do you see this borne out demographically in Calvinism?

I watch a lot of international sporting events, in the course of which, I often see athletes cross themselves before competing. Maybe they are all Anglicans.

Peace of Christ.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

I would like to offer an ALTERNATIVE exegesis of 1 John 4:7-10 in the light of John 3:16. Everything in square brackets represents the application of the preceding word. Remember the word kosmos represents God's created world/nature, of which we are a part.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world [kosmos]
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us [His created beings]

John 3:16 that he gave his only begotten Son
1 John 4:9 because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world [kosmos]

John 3:16 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life
1 John 4:9 so that we [who have chosen to believe] might live through him.

Both passages are saying the same thing. God loved everyone in the world which He had created so much, that He sent His only Son into the world, to give eternal life to all those who chose to believe on His Son. The "whosoever" in John 3:16 is the same as the "we" in 1 John 4:9i.e. those who have chosen to believe.

God is not into puppetry. He does not make some of us believers and some of us unbelievers against our will or desires. He convicts all of sin, but some will accept and some will reject. We saw this in the garden of Eden when man was in his purest and sinless state. God gave to Adam and Eve everything, except the tree of knowledge. It was up to man to either obey or disobey, but you know the rest of the story.

Here is what makes us different from animals - the free will. While animals are programmed to behave a certain way, humans have the capacity to make conscious decisions about life and eternity. The Holy Spirit may convict and draw men to God, but it is up to that person to accept or reject, to obey or disobey. That is the reason why we will be punished for our sins when we reject God's grace. Animals will not be punished or face the judgment.

Peace and blessings.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

I will now give an example of two men who each had a 'Damascus road experience' and how one rejected God's grace and one accepted God's grace.

Balaam the prophet of God rejected God's grace even after his 'Damascus road experience.' Read the account of Balaam's experience in Numbers 22: 21-25. In spite of all this, Balaam proved to be an unwilling prophet in the whole process, and was made to speak blessings unto Israel when he wanted to curse Israel (see Numbers 23 and 24). A plague had struck Israel in Numbers 25 because of idolatry, and it was later found out that it was Balaam who was responsible for causing the children of Israel to turn away from the one true God and worship idols (Numbers 31:16).


The other person who experienced a 'Damascus road experience' was Paul. Paul was stopped on the road while on his way to Damascus to persecute Christians (see Acts 9). Paul however accepted God's grace, and became the foremost apostle of God to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:7).

So you see, based on the above examples, God has given us a will which can either accept or reject His grace. Both men had similar experiences, and both were men of God (Balaam was a prophet of God and Paul was a Pharisee), but one chose to reject and the other chose to accept. God will NOT drag us into heaven kicking and screaming, neither will He make it so that we have no choice but to accept His grace. He is not interested in robotic Christians.


Peace and blessings.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

The "whosover" in John 3:16 is ANYONE in the world (kosmos/ creation) who chooses to believe in God' Son, will receive eternal life.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

The “us” in this immediate context is identified in verse 7, “Beloved, let us love one another,” i.e., the Christian fellowship, which is made up of Jews and Gentiles.

Are we here saying that God's love, and forgiveness and hence eternal life is limited to church members? That God is unable to save people who do not have church membership?

Jennie said...

So you see, based on the above examples, God has given us a will which can either accept or reject His grace.

What Eddie is saying in his message is that our will can only resist God. In order to be saved, we must let go of our will, and submit to God. It's like either holding on to our life with all our strength to resist Him, or letting go of our life and resting in Him.

Jennie said...

This submitting is what Paul did. His eyes were opened by Christ Himself, and once he saw the truth, he submitted and let go of his own will, saying in effect, 'Thy will be done.'

Paul said...

Jennie said:

"This submitting is what Paul did. His eyes were opened by Christ Himself, and once he saw the truth, he submitted and let go of his own will, saying in effect, 'Thy will be done.'"

Jennie, when Suirrel get's to the "I" of Irresistible Grace we will see that this "opening of the eyes" is Regeneration. When the spiritually dead are "quickened". Prior to that monergistic work of God we are "in the flesh" and cannot please God.

Romans 8:7-9 (ESV)Ro 8:7 (ESV) For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

_

Moonshadow said...

In order to be saved, we must let go of our will, and submit to God.

And this doesn't strike you as sounding very Eastern? Passive like Islam or Buddhism?

Western Christianity is active: watch & pray.

Paul said...

Jennie said:
"All those passages can be explained together. Jesus says He will draw all men to Himself, and that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. He says those who have heard and learned from the Father come to Him. As I've seen argued, the Greek word for draws can mean dragged or can also mean a more gentle pulling. Maybe it depends upon whether the person is rebelling or submitting whether it is 'being dragged kicking and screaming' or 'being genltly drawn'. The person who is rebelling, unless they finally submit in this life as some have, will be lost. The person who submits is saved by God's grace through faith. That is what Eddie has been trying to say in this study."

Jennie,
remember that the people being "drawn by the father" are corpses (spiritually). You cannot persuade a corpse to do anything. They need life.

John 3:3 (ESV) Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jennie said...

Teresa,
Submission is the only way we can obey God by faith. It doesn't mean we sit like dummies. It means we fall on our knees and give up our own life and will, by God's grace, through faith, and then get up and begin to walk by faith, as Paul did. Of course, we also need to abide in His word and pray.

Matthew 16:25
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Jennie said...

Paul,
remember that the people being "drawn by the father" are corpses (spiritually). You cannot persuade a corpse to do anything. They need life.
Could it be more like 'dead man walking'? We are all under a sentence of death until we are saved. We are 'as good as dead' like Abraham in Hebrews 11. We are sinning and 'bearing fruit unto death' as Paul said. Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
The bible uses both expressions:dead in sins, and dying, and also blind, lame, deaf, poor, naked, etc.
Anyway, we need Him to open our eyes, and give us life, and heal our infirmities. It is by His power and grace. He gives us the eyes to see, and the ears to hear, and the life to live in Him. However it works, it is all glory to God, and no merit to us.

Lockheed said...

Lockheed what about... v13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

YES! READ IT JENNIE! Those who are born again are born again NOT by the will of the flesh, NOT by the will of man, but of God.

They DON'T will it!

Do you really think that every place in the Bible where the world "ALL" appears it must mean "each and every man who ever lived"?

Now consider what this would really mean: Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Do you believe that ALL men are justified? Or is there perhaps, in most cases, some context that explains what the "all" means?

Consider again John 6, which you dismissed:

"All those passages can be explained together. Jesus says He will draw all men to Himself, and that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him"

Jennie, from the context of John 6, and John 6 alone... don't jump elsewhere... can you show this?

Consider:

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day....

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

- How do you see a difference in those drawn (v44) and those raised? You claim that Jesus draws "all" (and imply that it means each and every person who ever lived, without contextual basis).

If the "all" in John 12:32 means "each and every"... how can you avoid universalism.

Because, of those drawn, Jesus specifically states: "I will raise him up on the last day."

All those who are drawn, Christ will raise up. All those who are drawn by the Father COME to Christ, of all those who come to Christ He will lose none, all those who come to Christ He WILL RAISE UP.

John 6 leaves no room for you "Jesus draws each and every'" kind of claim.

"We are 'as good as dead' like Abraham in Hebrews 11."

Abraham was SAVED when he declared himself 'good as dead'. That verse does not apply.

Again, deal with Paul's spirit/flesh distinction.

Lockheed said...

"Daughter" - "Paul however accepted God's grace..."

Uh, no. Paul was given no choice. He was BLINDED by God. So much for his free will.

Paul said...

Lockheed said:

"Daughter" - "Paul however accepted God's grace..."

Uh, no. Paul was given no choice. He was BLINDED by God. So much for his free will.
--------------------
In addition to his meeting on the road.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. (ESV)
Acts 9:16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." (ESV)

Galatians 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; (ESV)

Jennie said...

Lockheed,
YES! READ IT JENNIE! Those who are born again are born again NOT by the will of the flesh, NOT by the will of man, but of God.

They DON'T will it!


Yes, I know. You haven't been carefully reading my comments from today or my husband's message. We have said that no one can will salvation. The only thing our will can do is resist God and go our own way. Our will is negated when we submit to God in faith by God's grace. We let go of our will and our life when the Spirit opens our eyes to the truth and we submit to Him.

Jennie said...

Do you really think that every place in the Bible where the world "ALL" appears it must mean "each and every man who ever lived"?

No Lockheed. I don't think that. I do think that in John and other places 'world' always means 'the whole world', those who have not yet accepted Christ.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. (ESV)
Acts 9:16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." (ESV)


The above passage speaks of the ordination of the apostle Paul by God for the work of carrying the gospel to the Gentiles. God does this all the time. He ordains people for special tasks in His kingdom. People get commissioned to serve after they are saved.


Galatians 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; (ESV)

Speaks to the foreknowledge of God and the pre-ordination of the apostle Paul. God had set him apart to preach the gospel from the womb, and called Paul "by means of his grace." God knew ahead of time, before Paul was even born, that Paul would accept His grace, and had ordained that Paul would be a preacher unto the Gentiles.


Each saved person has a special calling which God has placed upon our lives before we were even born. Once we become saved, the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to carry out our special calling. God KNOWS who is going to accept His grace, and who is going to reject His grace, because He is OMNIPOTENT. Jesus is the Lamb of God whose sacrifice "taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), but God is realistic in that He KNOWS that not everyone will accept the atoning sacrifice of Christ, therefore, He does not make any holy calling upon the lives of the rejectors, except the call to repent. "Repent and be baptized EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

On the day of judgment all will see the fairness of God in condemning the wicked, because they are "without excuse, because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:20b-22).

Peace and blessings.

Paul said...

Jennie said:

"No Lockheed. I don't think that. I do think that in John and other places 'world' always means 'the whole world', those who have not yet accepted Christ."
----
Jennie,
you are already allowing for exceptions.
"those who have not yet accepted Christ."
Here are some examples of uses of kosmos that do not mean the whole world.
Romans 3:19 (ESV) Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Christ was "in" the world but he is an exception to this account.

Romans 1:8 (ESV) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.

Proclaimed in all the world?

Colossians 1:6 (ESV) which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,

Bearing fruit in the whole world?

Romans 11:12 (ESV) Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

A distinction between the Gentile world and Israel?

John 17:9 (ESV) I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

A world distinct and excluding the disciples?

1 John 2:15 (ESV) Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Kosmos carrying an ethical connotation and is synonymous for the evil system that stands over against God and is hostile to all that God is and approves?

Paul said...

B.B Warfield on kosmos in Jn. 3:16:

"The key to the passage lies, therefore, you see, in the significance of the term "world." It is not here a term of extension so much as a term of intensity. Its primary connotation is ethical, and the point of its employment is not to suggest that the world is so big that it takes a great deal of love to embrace it all, but that the world is so bad that it takes a great kind of love to love it at all, and much more to love it as God has loved it when He gave His Son for it. The whole debate as to whether the love here celebrated distributes itself to each and every man that enters into the composition of the world, or terminates on the elect alone chosen out of the world, lies thus outside the immediate scope of the passage and does not supply any key to its interpretation. The passage was not intended to teach, and certainly does not teach, that God loves all men alike and visits each and every one alike with the same manifestations of His love: and as little was it intended to teach or does it teach that His love is confined to a few especially chosen individuals selected out of the world. What it is intended to do is to arouse in our hearts a wondering sense of the marvel and the mystery of the love of God for the sinful world—conceived, here, not quantitatively but qualitatively as, in its very distinguishing characteristic, sinful.
source:
http://www.lgmarshall.org/Warfield/warfield_immeasurablelove.html

Daughter of Wisdom said...

John 6:37-44 (King James Version)

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



This passage is self-explanatory. No one can come to Christ unless they are drawn to Christ by the Father (vs. 37 &44). God's will is that none of those who come to Christ should perish (vs. 39). God's will is that every one who sees Christ and believes in Him may have everlasting life (vs. 40). Christ will raise up that person who believes on Him on the last day (vs. 40).

Unfortunately, we can thwart God's will for our lives with disobedience. So even though it is God's will that no one should perish, "but that all should come to repentance" the fact of the matter is that not all persons will accept God's will for their lives (2 Peter 3:9).

Paul said...

D of W said:

"Galatians 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; (ESV)

Speaks to the foreknowledge of God and the pre-ordination of the apostle Paul. God had set him apart to preach the gospel from the womb, and called Paul "by means of his grace." God knew ahead of time, before Paul was even born, that Paul would accept His grace, and had ordained that Paul would be a preacher unto the Gentiles"
--------
Where do we see God's (passive) foreknowledge of Paul's accepting His grace as the root of God's ordaining of Paul's vocation?

Paul said...

D of W said:

"This passage is self-explanatory. No one can come to Christ unless they are drawn to Christ by the Father (vs. 37 &44). God's will is that none of those who come to Christ should perish (vs. 39). God's will is that every one who sees Christ and believes in Him may have everlasting life (vs. 40). Christ will raise up that person who believes on Him on the last day (vs. 40)."
-----------
Are you able to interact with the text any better than George Bryson did in this cross examination? You have the advantage of pausing and considering each of the questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDKlW9o1rnI&feature=channel_page

Only 7 minutes in length.

Paul said...

D of W said:

"Unfortunately, we can thwart God's will for our lives with disobedience. So even though it is God's will that no one should perish, "but that all should come to repentance" the fact of the matter is that not all persons will accept God's will for their lives (2 Peter 3:9)."

---------------
Is this an example where "all" means "every single person in the universe"? Or is it referring to the immediate context?
2 Peter 3:1-2
3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
If you follow the pronouns you will see who is being addressed.
Not "all" people without exclusion but "all" the beloved.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Where do we see God's (passive) foreknowledge of Paul's accepting His grace as the root of God's ordaining of Paul's vocation?

To answer your question Paul, I will quote Romans 8:29-30, NIV:

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Now Paul I do not disagree with you that God died for the sins of the elect, and that He does not want to see the elect perish. The point I am making is that God has given that same opportunity to the non-elect, but they are not saved because they have rejected God's grace.

Romans 1:18-20, NIV

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Moonshadow said...

John 6:41-51 just happened to be the Scripture text for this evening's service.

Let me quote our prayer before communion:

"This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper. Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed." (John 1:29; Rev. 19:9; Luke 7:7)

Paul said...

Daughter Of Wisdom said:

" Where do we see God's (passive) foreknowledge of Paul's accepting His grace as the root of God's ordaining of Paul's vocation?

To answer your question Paul, I will quote Romans 8:29-30, NIV:

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
------------

Thank you for your answer.

The Golden Chain Of Redemption

The "golden chain of redemption" begins in Romans 8:29 and comprises a chain of five verbs, all of which have God as the subject and the elect as their object. The verbs are:
foreknew--> predestined--> called--> justified--> glorified
Each is an active verb in the past tense; that is, these are actions that are,from God's perspective, finished and certain, and the fact that they are active means that they are divine actions. These are things God does. We will see how important this is as we exegete the passage.

Paul said...

cont.
The main clause is the direct assertion of a positive act of predestination on the part of God the Father. The predestination is unto the fullness of salvation, of course, for only those who are forgiven, justified, and adopted are conformed to the image of Christ, and these are called Christ's "brethren", a term that in this context is reserved for believers.
The traditions of men attempt to short-circuit the entire passage by mis-defining the first divine action on God's part. When Paul says that God "foreknew" those He then also predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies, men immediately ignore the biblical meaning of the term, put a creation of philosophy in it's place, and insist that all the actions God undertakes in this passage are based upon His responding to and acting in light of forseen actions on the part of autonomous men. So often is the "God looked into the future and saw who would choose Him" statement made, that most accept it without any inquiry into it's truthfulness. But the fact is that the text knows nothing of this "crystal ball" approach to God's decree of salvation.

Paul said...

contd.
The term translated foreknow is an active verb. The way it is portrayed in evangelical tradition would not be something God does but instead would involve God passively taking in knowledge from an outside source. When we examine the use of this word in Scripture, we discover that three times in the New Testament God is said to "foreknow". And what is vitally important to understand is that in none of these passages does God foreknow future events. That is, the word does not refer to looking into the future and observing events. The direct object of "foreknow" when used of God is always personal. God foreknows the elect (Romans 8:29), His people (Romans 11:2), and Christ (1 Peter 1:20). These are all personal objects, never events. This means that, for the person who wishes to dismiss this section of Scripture using the "foreknowledge defense," the task is difficult indeed, for such a person will have to explain how this one usage is the exception, and why, in the context, it must bear a meaning seen nowhere else.
source:
Debating Calvinism Five Points Two Views (pp144-146)
Dave Hunt & James White

Moonshadow said...

Lockheed: They DON'T will it!
Jennie: We have said that no one can will salvation.

Jennie has said it. Lockheed has not been paying attention.

But we can pray for it. "Lord, bring us to salvation and keep us faithful to the light of your truth. ... Almighty and ever-living God, your Spirit made us your children, confident to call you Father. Increase your Spirit within us and bring us to our promised inheritance. Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen." cf. James 1:5

Lockheed: If the "all" in John 12:32 means "each and every"... how can you avoid universalism.

You can't.

See my comment above, M. Eugene Boring has identified about 20 or so "universalist" passages in Scripture. Here are some of the more compelling verses taken from his list: Ps. 86:9; Is. 45:22-23; Is. 49:6; Matt. 20:16; John 3:17; Romans 11:32; Phil. 2:6-11; 1 Tim 2:3-4; Titus 2:11. It isn't right to suppress these verses, especially for the sake of a theological system.

Jennie said...

Teresa,
As far as universalism goes, I've already explained my view on John 12:32; that all are drawn, but only a few submit; the rest resist and are not saved.
It's not right to suppress scripture, but it has to be understood in the light of other scriptures. Some of those passages are not very convincing as universalist passages; some are harder to explain; and there are others that you didn't mention. But, there are other passages that contradict any universalist idea, like 'strait is the way and narrow is the gate that leads to life, and few there be that find it.' So we should not give hope where there is any doubt.

Lockheed said...

You can't.

Exactly, therefore, unless you're willing to accept universalism, you must understand the context of each usage of "all". Occasionally it does mean "each and every", but rarely. In most cases it means "each and every of a group" or "people from all groups".

I take it that you're NOT a universalist Jennie? And what about you Moonshadow?

Jennie, do you ever pray for a friend's salvation? If so... what exactly do you pray?

Lockheed said...

Our will is negated when we submit to God in faith by God's grace. We let go of our will and our life when the Spirit opens our eyes to the truth and we submit to Him.

But... if our will is to not submit to God (remember Romans 8:7-9?), at what point does a person "submit to God in faith"? Your entire scheme places all the initiative, all the power, in the hands of sinful men and women who are hostile toward God.

Again, from Romans 8, unless the Spirit first comes to dwell in you, you will never submit to God in faith.

I ask you again, walk through Romans 8, walk through John 6, don't jump elsewhere and lose the context to support your tradition, please walk through those passages and from them understand what is being said.

Then, you can go to the other passages with that in mind. Don't jump to John 12, read John 6 just as its written. Read Romans 8 and 9, ignore the chapter distinction between them and understand the fullness of what Paul is saying.

Moonshadow said...

And what about you Moonshadow?

No, I'm not a Calvinist.

Jennie said...

Lockheed,
But... if our will is to not submit to God (remember Romans 8:7-9?), at what point does a person "submit to God in faith"? Your entire scheme places all the initiative, all the power, in the hands of sinful men and women who are hostile toward God.

In Romans 10, and elsewhere, it speaks of faith coming by hearing and hearing by the word of God. 'For with the heart one believes unto righteousness.' We hear the word, and believe. We see the truth, and believe. The Spirit by the word opens our eyes, and we believe, submitting to Him in repentance. There are some that hear but 'do not obey the gospel.' They have heard and then resisted.
When we humble ourselves, and submit, God gives us more grace.

Jennie said...

Lockheed,
I take it that you're NOT a universalist Jennie? And what about you Moonshadow?

Jennie, do you ever pray for a friend's salvation? If so... what exactly do you pray?


Are these trick questions :)

No, I'm not a universalist; When I read some passages, I wonder and hope against hope, but I can't take it too far. Certainly there is judgment and hell for the wicked.

I pray something like 'Father, please grant ____ faith and repentance and save _____. Please have mercy on ______ and open ____'s
eyes to the truth.'

Lockheed said...

Are these trick questions :)

These questions reveal the inconsistencies in a worldview, let me show you:

I pray something like 'Father, please grant ____ faith and repentance and save _____. Please have mercy on ______ and open ____'s
eyes to the truth.'"


Has it not been your position that every one has everything they need to have faith?

Don't they just need to exercise their will? Hasn't God already had mercy on them and all they need to do is accept it?

Are you really praying for God to intervene and act against their free will?

Basically, what I'm getting at, is that you seem to be praying like a Calvinist... that God will intervene in a person's life and cause them to repent by opening their eyes (John 3:3!) etc.

Consider though, if their eyes are closed, if they need God to grant them faith and repentance... then what we have said is true. Their wills are enslaved to sin, they are "spiritually dead", they need to be first raised to life anew so that they might see and worship God and trust in Him.

Perhaps now you can understand why I point you back to Romans 8, where Paul tells us that unbelievers are hostile toward God and unable to submit to His Law... UNLESS the Spirit dwells in their heart.

Perhaps then you can also understand better John 6, wherein we are given this promise: that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draw them, and of all that the Father gives to the Son, He will lose none.

Our salvation, from start to finish, is a work of God, wherein He takes dead, depraved sinners and gives them new life by putting His Spirit in them and causing them to walk in His statutes.

Thus it is written:

Eph 2:4
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

You see, it was while you were still dead that God RAISED you to life, aka regenerated you. The result of this is that you believed. This is why Paul wrote it this way.

Moonshadow said...

do you ever pray for a friend's salvation? If so... what exactly do you pray? ... Are you really praying for God to intervene and act against their free will?

Her answer reflects that you've ask after half the equation. She's also engaging in evangelism with the friend.

And me, I pray less specifically, that God save them, just as MacDonald's character Robert Falconer prays,

'O Lord! save my father,' and there paused.
'If it be thy will,' suggested his grandmother.
But Robert continued silent. His grandmother repeated the subjunctive clause.
'I'm tryin', grandmother,' said Robert, 'but I canna say' t. I daurna say an if aboot it. It wad be like giein' in till 's damnation We maun hae him saved, grannie!'

Daughter of Wisdom said...

And what is vitally important to understand is that in none of these passages does God foreknow future events. That is, the word does not refer to looking into the future and observing events. The direct object of "foreknow" when used of God is always personal. God foreknows the elect (Romans 8:29), His people (Romans 11:2), and Christ (1 Peter 1:20). These are all personal objects, never events.

Paul, I am just curious. Why do you think it so important to quote the opinions of men on scripture as fact, when the scripture itself speaks plainly? There is a certain danger in pigeon-holing our beliefs to fit someone else's beliefs. Heck, even I don't expect anyone to adopt my beliefs, if they find something that is not in accordance with scripture.

Now for the passages you quoted to prove your point:

Romans 11:2, NIV:

God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel.


The above passage is saying that God knew ahead of time that Israel would rebel against Messiah because of unbelief. Read the rest of the chapter. Do you think anything is a surprise to God?

1 Peter 1:19-20:

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.


The above passage is saying that God foreordained, or planned ahead of time that Christ would be the redeemer for mankind. Read verse 18.


If we interpret scripture with scripture, we cannot go wrong.

Peace and blessings.:-)

Jennie said...

Lockheed

Has it not been your position that every one has everything they need to have faith?

Don't they just need to exercise their will? Hasn't God already had mercy on them and all they need to do is accept it?

Are you really praying for God to intervene and act against their free will?


No. You haven't read my or my husband's statements carefully.
We're not in any of your boxes.

Jennie said...

Jennie,
you are already allowing for exceptions.
"those who have not yet accepted Christ."
Here are some examples of uses of kosmos that do not mean the whole world.
Romans 3:19 (ESV) Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Christ was "in" the world but he is an exception to this account.


I said 'Those who have not yet accepted Christ.' That was not an exception, it is the same as 'the world.' God loved us while we were still sinners, still part of the world. Then we came out of the world, and like Him are in the world but not of the world. I don't see any contradiction there.

Jennie said...

Paul,
I can agree with what Warfield was saying about kosmos in John 3:16. I just don't agree with the Calvinist view that Jesus didn't die for everyone.


29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
------------

Thank you for your answer.

The Golden Chain Of Redemption

The "golden chain of redemption" begins in Romans 8:29 and comprises a chain of five verbs, all of which have God as the subject and the elect as their object. The verbs are:
foreknew--> predestined--> called--> justified--> glorified
Each is an active verb in the past tense; that is, these are actions that are,from God's perspective, finished and certain, and the fact that they are active means that they are divine actions. These are things God does. We will see how important this is as we exegete the passage.


I understand what you are saying. However, I think there are things we do not understand, since there are passages that seem to add to this, seemingly contradicting the Calvinist understanding. Jesus says 'Many are called, but few are chosen.' How does this fit in here? I don't know. Is this a different calling than the one in Romans?

Leo said...

One thing that was revealed to me during prayer this week, that I am sure you will appreciate, Teresa.

One of the reasons God gave us His Church was so that we would not waste our lives trying to discover on our own what He plainly revealed to us through the Church by unlocking the meaning of Scripture.

There would be no Mother Teresas in this world if they spent their time trying to understand the simplest of revelations rather than living in grace, strengthened by the Sacraments, receiving the grace to tend to the least of Christ's brothers. The Truth really does set us free to do what God wants us to do.

When you are on the ark, you are not so busy swimming that you cannot tend to the animals...

Moonshadow said...

If we interpret scripture with scripture, we cannot go wrong.

And yet, this whole thread has demonstrated (at least to me) that it depends which scripture is used to interpret which scripture ... and a disagreement on which scriptures are in themselves already sufficiently plain.

I think I'm about done here. I've seen enough.

Peace of Christ to you all. Leo, your comment above is well-taken.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

One of the reasons God gave us His Church was so that we would not waste our lives trying to discover on our own what He plainly revealed to us through the Church by unlocking the meaning of Scripture.

Leo, you are right. One of the reasons why there is so much confusion is because people have refused to receive the plain teachings of the Bible, and have come up with doctrines of their own, that contradict scripture. We won't have any real unity of faith until we lay aside our pre-conceived notions and open ourselves to the Truth of God's Word as in the Bible. God is not the author of confusion. Quoting the works of men that contradict scripture is a sure way to cause confusion.


Peace to all.:-)

Daughter of Wisdom said...

"Many are called few are chosen"

Jennie, let me give you a clue. The chosen ones are the same as the elected ones.

Peace and blessings.:-)

Jennie said...

Hillary,
yes, but how does that relate to Romans 8:29? There it says the called are first foreknown and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

The Squirrel said...

"I just don't agree with the Calvinist view that Jesus didn't die for everyone. "

The question then is; What exactly did Jesus' sacrifice accomplish? If He died for all, then why are not all saved?

In John 10:11, Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." Note, He "lays down His life for the sheep."

Then just a few verses later, Jesus says to those who reject him, "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." (John 10:26)

Jesus died for His sheep, and those who do not believe do not believe because they are not of His sheep. The quote is "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." and not "you are not of My sheep because you do not believe."

Jesus did not die for all, He died for all of the elect, and He accomplished the salvation of exactly who He intended to save. His will is not frustrated.

Think on that a bit.

~Squirrel

Jennie said...

Leo,
One thing that was revealed to me during prayer this week, that I am sure you will appreciate, Teresa.

One of the reasons God gave us His Church was so that we would not waste our lives trying to discover on our own what He plainly revealed to us through the Church by unlocking the meaning of Scripture.


I should have said 'protestants only' on this one :)
I was hoping that Eddie's message would show that the 'boxes' which separate us disappear when we depend wholly upon scripture, apart from any philosophies of men, such as Calvin who depended upon Augustine who didn't wholly separate from the philosophies he
had learned before being converted. It's not so simple as you think, Leo. The Catholic Church also is steeped in philosophies and traditions of men that have little or no ground in scripture. Again, I say, until we are united in the truth of scripture, abiding in His word and growing in Him, we will not be unified. We have to be united in Spirit AND truth.

The Squirrel said...

Foreknowledge in Romans 8 is not refering to, as some put it, God "looking down through the hallways of time" to see who would believe, then electing those people. God's foreknowledge is based on His preordained plan of the ages.

"God's foreknowledge, according to the Scripture teaching, is based upon His plan or eternal purpose, which embraces everything that comes to pass. God is never represented as a mere onlooker seeing the future course of events, but having no part in it. That God has such a plan is the teaching of the entire Scripture. It is implied in the Old Testament conception of God as an Omnipotent Person governing all things in accordance with His will." -- International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

~Squirrel

Jennie said...

Squirrel,
I don't see that because it says He died for the sheep that it means He didn't die for all men. It means He died so that those who believe can be His sheep. Anyone can believe if they hear the word and submit. What about
1 Timothy 4:10 (New King James Version)

10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Jennie said...

Teresa,
I'm sorry, and I don't blame you for being tired of it. Like I said to Leo, I was hoping Eddie's message would help show that the 'boxes' of doctrine that separate us are not necessary, because scripture as a whole has the answers, and whatever we can't understand is for God alone. I thought Eddie's understanding of 'will' was very helpful and might make the differences disappear. I don't know if anyone has really caught what he was saying. No one has said much about it.

Jennie said...

I have a question for the Calvinists: Is it correct to use hard passages to interpret clear passages? You are using passages that talk of predestination, which is hard to understand, to try to shed light on clear passages that teach that God loved the world and that Christ is the savior of the world, which are essential to the preaching of the gospel, so that those who hear know that salvation is offered to them by grace through faith in Christ.

Leo said...

Jennie said," It's not so simple as you think, Leo. The Catholic Church also is steeped in philosophies and traditions of men that have little or no ground in scripture. Again, I say, until we are united in the truth of scripture, abiding in His word and growing in Him, we will not be unified. We have to be united in Spirit AND truth."

Sorry, Jennie, but it really IS that simple. You are unfortunately distorting the meaning of Scripture to your own end. My example of Christ giving the apostles the power to forgive sins CANNOT be explained away no matter how hard you try. Who is truly reading Scripture the way it was written without philosphies of men? We are. You are not. When Jesus explained the Eucharist in literal terms, who is reading Scripture literally the way it was written without the philosophies of men? We are. You are not. You are blinded by your own animus against the Church. You know, it's funny that you are simply unable to read Scripture literally where intended.

When Mary is clearly the ark of the new covenant in literal interpretation of Scripture, you again turn to the philosophies of men. When I show that these literal interpretations were believed in the earliest centuries, you simply dismiss those fathers of the Church and run back holding your ears, saying "sola scriptura, sola scriptura", as if that will somehow save you from what is all too apparent. It is sad that you cannot see Scripture as a whole. I can show you logical scriptures supporting all these Catholic positions. You cannot do the same to prove them wrong. And yet, you accuse me of misinterpretation...amazing, simply amazing...

Jennie said...

Leo,
When Jesus explained the Eucharist in literal terms, who is reading Scripture literally the way it was written without the philosophies of men? We are. You are not.

Did you happen to read my post on 'I Am the Bread of Life'? It explains the metaphorical language that Jesus was using and what it represents. Jesus often used metaphors and used literal terms in describing these metaphors. An example is 'I am the vine. You are the branches.' He used the literal words for vine, branches, prunes, bearing fruit, etc. but we don't really believe He is a vine or that we are literally branches. He did the same thing in calling Himself the shepherd, the door, the gate, the bread, the Lamb, etc.
Why should this one be literally understood and all the others not?

Jennie said...

When Mary is clearly the ark of the new covenant in literal interpretation of Scripture, you again turn to the philosophies of men. When I show that these literal interpretations were believed in the earliest centuries, you simply dismiss those fathers of the Church and run back holding your ears, saying "sola scriptura, sola scriptura", as if that will somehow save you from what is all too apparent.
Leo,
It is not clear that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant. And I used no philosophies of men to show from scripture that Mary is a part of Israel and the New Testament Church, and is not to be elevated above the rest of the church. Only Christ is to be lifted up in that way.
You never showed me any historical proofs of early belief in Mary as the Ark. But the scripture is to be our guide as to how we look at Mary. Even if some in the early centuries began lifting her up, this does not mean it is good. She is not exalted in scripture, but is honored as a woman of faith as other believers have been.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Hillary,
yes, but how does that relate to Romans 8:29? There it says the called are first foreknown and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.


Jennie, I will try to answer your question as best as I can. I had stated that the chosen ones are the same as the elect ones. Let me first deal with Romans 8:29-30.

Romans 8:29-30, NIV:

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.



The above text is simple. It is an outline of God's plan of salvation for the human race, but more specifically how He saves the elect (vs. 33). God knew ahead of time (foreknew) who would accept His grace and who would reject it. Of those who would accept His grace, God had determined ahead of time (predestined) that they should be given a new Christlike nature (the new man), of which Christ is the firstborn among the brethren of faith. He does this by calling us(to repentance), justifying us (by faith), and then finally glorifying us (in heaven).

Next I will be commenting on Matthew 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Matthew 22:1- (New King James Version)

1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and[a] cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

A parable of Jesus to teach an eternal lesson. The king represents God. The son represents Christ. The guests to the wedding are the Jews. The Jews rejected Christ, so God calls the "bad and good" out there in the highways to the feast, i.e the Gentiles. The Gentiles accept the invitation, but one Gentile presented himself without the robe of righteousness (the wedding garment), and is cast out of the wedding party (not allowed to partake of the wedding).

As far as the Bible is concerned, there are only two kinds of people on earth - Jew or Gentile. God has sent out an invitation for salvation first to the Jews, and it was rejected. He then sent out an invitation to the Gentiles and it was well received. The Gentile who was cast out, was thrown out because he recognized the call of God in his life, but never submitted himself to receive the robe of righteousness. He is like a person whom God has called into His kingdom but refuses to abide by the principles of God's kingdom. Only those who answer the call, and are obedient to the stipulations of that call, will be saved.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Only those who answer God's call, and live according to the principles of God's kingdom, WILL BE CHOSEN TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE. The chosen are therefore the elect.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Do you want to make it into heaven? Then do not ignore or reject the call of God. "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fail" (2 Peter 1:10).

Jennie said...

Hillary,
so are the called in Matt. 22 the same as the called in Romans 8? That's my question?

Paul said...

Jennie said:
"Hillary,
so are the called in Matt. 22 the same as the called in Romans 8? That's my question?"

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I. THE OUTWARD CALL

The Scripture clearly speaks of two different calls. The first one in the order of occurrence is known generally as the outward or external call. The following Scriptures refer to this call: Isa. 45:22; 55:6; Matt. 9:13; 11:28; 22:14; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32; Rev. 22:17. There are other Scriptures that evidently refer to both calls. These are reserved until we take up the inward call.
continued:

II. THE INWARD CALL

The following Scriptures refer to the inward call: Acts 2:39; Rom. 1:6; 8.28, 30; 9:11,24; 1 Cor. 1:1,26; 7:15; Gal. 1:15; 5:8; Eph. 4:4; Col. 3:15; 1 Thess. 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 9:15; 1 Pet. 1.15; 2:9; 3:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3,10; Jude 1. Some of these Scriptures, as has been indicated already, seem to allude to both the inward and outward call.
continued:

http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Simmons/chapter22.htm

Paul said...

From the ESV Study Bible
Matt 22:14
Many (Gk. polloi) are called means that many have been invited to the wedding feast. But not all those invited are actually the ones who are supposed to be there, because few are chosen. This has been described as the doctrine of a “general calling”: the gospel is proclaimed to all people everywhere, both those who will believe and those who will not. However, Paul also mentions another kind of calling, an effective calling from God that comes powerfully to individuals and brings a positive response. When the gospel is proclaimed, only some are effectively called—that is, those who are the elect, who respond with true faith (1 Cor. 1:24, 26–28). This is consistent with Jesus' statement that “few are chosen,” for the ones “chosen” (Gk. eklektos, “selected, chosen”) are “the elect,” a term used by Jesus to refer to his true disciples (cf. Matt. 11:27; 24:22, 24, 31; on the theme of election, see note on Rom. 9:11).

Lockheed said...

Since the Roman Catholics have hijacked the thread, I'll leave it be. Clearly Jennie is listening to her husband (as she should), but he isn't part of this thread, thus we're talking to the wrong party.

My most recent post at radongas.blogspot.com goes over original sin and total depravity. I suggest if you're interested you check it out.

God bless you.

Moonshadow said...

not all those invited are actually the ones who are supposed to be there

Then I don't know what it means to say that God shows no partiality. (Scripture verses)

Romans 4:17 begins an interesting dimension of "call":

God ... gives life to the dead and calls [ καλέω ] into existence the things that do not exist.

Following the cross-references to 1 Cor. 1:28 and Heb. 11:3 gets us back to creation ... and the new creation.

Moonshadow said...

The only thing our will can do is resist God and go our own way.

Alright, maybe we can get back to the original topic.

I looked up "will" (θέλω) in a theological dictionary.

The most devastating verse to your husband's article is 2 Tim. 3:12 -

"Yea, and all that will live godly [ πάντες δὲ οἱ θέλοντες εὐσεβῶς ζῆν ] in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." The first verb in this passage is in the present tense and active voice. Compare these other English translations.

Additionally, Paul "express[es] his apostolic will as a teacher in pastoral directions;" the "weighty and authoritative discharge of office" in 1 Cor. 7:32; Rom. 16:19; 1 Cor. 10:20 ... "I would have you ... I would not have you ..."

Faith and willed healing - Matt. 15:28; Mark 10:51.

John 7:17 says, "If any man will do his [God's] will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself."

John 15:7 says, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." No mere wish but grounded in the Spirit.

And those prayers that I shared above ... you must tell me how God would refuse those prayers, for His Spirit and for salvation. Here are the prayers again:

"Lord, bring us to salvation and keep us faithful to the light of your truth. ... Almighty and ever-living God, your Spirit made us your children, confident to call you Father. Increase your Spirit within us and bring us to our promised inheritance. Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen."

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Hillary,
so are the called in Matt. 22 the same as the called in Romans 8? That's my question?


Jennie, in Matthew 22 God sends out a call to EVERYONE, even to those who would reject Him. Romans 8 describes how God justifies ONLY THOSE WHO ANSWER THE CALL, so in effect, the ones in Romans 8 consists ONLY of those who have answered the call, been justified, and finally glorified, i.e the elect.

Paul (the blogger) said:

This has been described as the doctrine of a “general calling”: the gospel is proclaimed to all people everywhere, both those who will believe and those who will not.

I totally agree with that. God does send out an invitation to all persons to be saved. I do believe however that every call of God to sinners acts upon the inward heart of man through the Holy Spirit (who works on the inward heart of the sinner from outside). The Spirit does not indwell a person until after they are saved. One of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to "reprove the world of sin, and of rigteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:8). The Spirit stirs up the heart and convicts the soul, even if through a preacher. Faith comes by HEARING, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The call of God came to Pilate through his wife, "Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him," but Pilate rejected the call to not sin against God (Matthew 27:19). The call of God came to king Agrippa through Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" but he rejected the call (Acts 26:28). The call of God went out to Balaam through a donkey, but Balaam rejected the call (Numbers 22:27-34, see also Numbers 23, 24, 25, 31:1-16).

In the above examples, God's Spirit convicts the person through their consciences, which is located inwardly(John 8:9). When we however reject God's call, our consciences become hardened against the word of God.

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron"(1 Timothy 4:1-2).

Peace and blessings.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Just a quick note about John 10.

The word "sheep" is a metaphor for "follower." Every where you see the word "sheep" you can substitute the word "follower." Of course Christ is going to die for His followers! He invites all to be His follower, but His death cannot atone for the sins of those who refuse to follow Him. He can only atone for those who accept His invitation to follow Him.

Only those who are truly converted to Christ, will be able to understand what He is saying/teaching, and follow His commands. An unconverted person lacks the ability to understand the words of Christ and follow His commands/teachings. That person needs to be converted first, and then he/she will be able to follow Christ.

The people who reject Christ are not Christ's sheep because they are not following Him. They are following someone else. There is no reason why some of those who reject will not later become followers, such as Paul, before his conversion.

Jennie, continue to preach the gospel to all nations, peoples and tongues. Who accepts and who rejects is not up to us. Our job only is to preach. Let us leave the results up to God.

Peace and blessings :-)

Jennie said...

Teresa,
The most devastating verse to your husband's article is 2 Tim. 3:12 -

"Yea, and all that will live godly [ πάντες δὲ οἱ θέλοντες εὐσεβῶς ζῆν ] in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." The first verb in this passage is in the present tense and active voice. Compare these other English translations.


My husband is not saying that after we are saved we don't do anything, or that we don't have a will anymore. Our will must continually be submitted after this as well. We must walk in faith (submission) as we began in faith.
See Romans 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Notice we again submit by presenting ourselves as living sacrifices, transformed by the renewing of our minds TO PROVE WHAT IS THAT GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE AND PERFECT WILL OF GOD. Not our will, but His.
See also James 4:
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:


“ God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

Notice it says to have victory over temptation, we must humble ourselves and submit to God, giving up our love for the world.

Paul said...

Daughter Of Wisdom said:
"On the day of judgment all will see the fairness of God in condemning the wicked, because they are "without excuse, because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:20b-22).
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God is NOT fair. Just yes, merciful yes but if He is fair then we all get what we deserve. What we deserve is judgment. This is one of the many problems in how many in the church view the state of man in his sinful, rebellious nature. A condition they perceive that is "not so dead". Until we start with a Biblical understanding of anthropology as Squirrel has been trying to present on his blog under "The Will, Free Or Enslaved" and "Defending Dordt" we will continue assuming unbiblical principles like "the fairness of God".

http://babyloniansquirrel.blogspot.com/2009/07/defending-dordt_17.html

Paul said...

Daughter of Wisdom said:
"God knew ahead of time (foreknew) who would accept His grace and who would reject it. Of those who would accept His grace, God had determined ahead of time (predestined) that they should be given a new Christlike nature (the new man),
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Again:
The term translated foreknow is an active verb. The way it is portrayed in evangelical tradition would not be something God does but instead would involve God passively taking in knowledge from an outside source. When we examine the use of this word in Scripture, we discover that three times in the New Testament God is said to "foreknow". And what is vitally important to understand is that in none of these passages does God foreknow future events. That is, the word does not refer to looking into the future and observing events. The direct object of "foreknow" when used of God is always personal. God foreknows the elect (Romans 8:29), His people (Romans 11:2), and Christ (1 Peter 1:20). These are all personal objects, never events. This means that, for the person who wishes to dismiss this section of Scripture using the "foreknowledge defense," the task is difficult indeed, for such a person will have to explain how this one usage is the exception, and why, in the context, it must bear a meaning seen nowhere else.
source:
Debating Calvinism Five Points Two Views (pp144-146)
Dave Hunt & James White

Jennie said...

Leo,
I am going to move your comments on Mary to the thread under my post on Mary as the Ark of the Covenant, since they don't fit in here. I should have known better than to answer you about Mary and get you started :)

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Leo,

I am going to be the odd man out here and really compliment you on your impressive scriptural exegesis. You drew a beautiful analogy and parallel between Old Testament teaching and New Testament fulfillment. There is however a more deeper teaching pertaining to the ark of the covenant that goes far beyond Mary. A more greater, deeper, and eternal fulfillment. I will post a little of this under the Ark of the Covenant thread.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Jesus died for all humanity, but we need to accept His invitation to be saved. We need to (1) Listen to the convicting voice of the Holy Spirit within our consciences (2) Acknowledge our sinfulness (3) Repent (4) Accept God's grace and forgiveness (5) Be willing to follow Him in obedience. Salvation involves accepting God's 'wedding garment' which is Christ's robe of righteousness. NO ONE WILL ENTER HEAVEN UNLESS THEY ARE CLOTHED IN CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.