A reader who is Catholic told me that if I have a problem with the idea of people asking Mary and other saints to intercede for them in prayer, then I should also have a problem with asking other believers to pray for me. I found the following article on gotquestions.org and posted the first part of the article here. Please go to the link to read the entire article. I think the writer brings up many good scriptural points to refute the practice of praying to Mary and the saints or asking for their intercession.
Question: "Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?"
Answer: The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..."
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
59 comments:
What people fail to realize is that God answers prayer according to His will. Making a request to God for something that is against His will, by going through another person that is considered 'of higher standing' in the sight of God, will NOT get you what you want, from God. Even if the request is according to God's will, intercessory prayer only becomes necessary IF we are unrepentantly harboring sins in our lives. "If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear" (Psalm 66:18, NKJV). If we are in such an unfortunate situation, then we need the prayers of others to interecede for us. As it says in James 5:16, "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
We need to understand that the prayer of the intercessor is NOT for us to try to get God to grant our requests through another person, but for the intercessor to pray for us, so that God can heal and restore our broken relationship with Him. The goal is REPENTANCE.
Are your prayers not being answered? It may be that you are asking outside of God's will, or it may be that you are harboring some sin(s) that is/are affecting your relationship with God. Confess your sins before God and forsake them! If you have wronged anyone, go and confess to THAT PERSON and ask THAT PERSON to forgive you! The scripture below speaks about prayer for the sick, but it can also be applied to any prayer. Please note also that Elijah was a man just like us, who prayed to God directly, and yet God heard and answered his prayer (vs.17). Ww too should not be afraid to go directly before God in true humility and contrition of heart to make our requests known.
James 5:13-17, NKJV
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.
Intercessory prayer as practiced in the Bible is a community experience, where we pray for each other in love, and are given the privilege of witnessing the power of God in the lives of others. Praying to a 'saint' in heaven is NOT A COMMUNITY EXPERIENCE. It lacks human witnesses to the experience, and robs US of the opportunity to be a channel of God's power in the lives of others.
Okay now. I am now ready to receive the flack. :-)
Good points, Hillary!
Typical Protestant drivel...
Oh, come on, laugh. That is exactly what you are trying to say about the Catholic Church. You are just trying to act as if you are doing it in a nice way...nonsense.
Let's stop emulating the octopus by throwing up a cloud of ink to obfuscate Truth.
1. Is God the God of the dead or of the living, my dear descendants of the scribes and Pharisees?
2. Do you or do you not ask others to pray for you?
If you answered 1)of the living and 2)yes , what on earth makes you think that we lose contact with our elder brothers and sisters in heaven?
Did not the man in flames call out to "Father Abraham" or not? Did not Abraham respond? Gee, how do you suppose they got in touch with each other? Skype?
You may be surprised to learn this, but all of those in heaven are praying for us to get there. The body of Christ is not divided.
Let me show you how silly this quoted argument is:
"However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help."
What are you doing when you ask a person to pray for you? You are asking them to ASK God for help. This is exactly what we are doing when we pray directly to a saint in heaven. Our Blessed Mother and our elder brothers and sisters in Christ can do NOTHING on their own. It is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS God who works through them, like through us, to accomplish His works.
Please stop misrepresenting the Faith and be objective.
Leo,
I and the author of the article I quoted from are going by the fact that scripture does not teach us to pray to the departed, and scripture in several places warns against trying to contact the departed. Saying that God is the God of the living (which is true) does not change those facts. Jesus and the Holy Spirit intercede for us, as we come directly to the Father's throne. We are taught to pray for one another, but not to ask the departed to pray for us or to pray directly to them for their help, as some prayers I've seen to saints do.
Did not the man in flames call out to "Father Abraham" or not? Did not Abraham respond? Gee, how do you suppose they got in touch with each other?
This is not a picture of heaven and hell as they have been since Christ died and rose again, or as they will be after the judgment. Before Christ died and descended into Hades to preach to the departed souls, Hades (or the place of death) was where everyone went, but was divided into paradise (where those who by faith awaited the Messiah went) and a place of suffering, which were divided but apparently those in one could see and speak to those in the other part. Here is an article I found which uses scripture to explain this, and adds other insights as well.http://www.letusreason.org/Doct19.htm
I am sorry to say, but there is no evidence, neither in the Old Testament nor New Testament of believers praying or asking departed saints for help. In addition, we have not been left with any instruction of the sort, in the Bible.
Another thing: How can we be sure that the saints we are contacting are really in heaven? They could be in purgatory or worse. Do we possess the ability to see where people are in the afterlife?
The story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man was a parable told by Jesus to the Pharisees to explain that even if someone came back from the dead (or afterlife) to warn us, that we would not believe them.
Luke 16: 29-31, NIV
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
We remember the first part of the story, but we conveniently forget the last part, which shows that NOT EVEN ABRAHAM was unable to intercede for the rich man's brothers! So much for intercessory prayer by dead folks in the afterlife!
We need to listen to Moses and the Proohets, i.e. our Bible, and discover the truths contained in its pages, and not go seeking the help of dead folks.
The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers.
I often read in Paul's letters that he is praying for his communities. The pious assumption is that Paul continues to pray for the followers of Christ. And, now in heaven, Paul prays according to God's will, if he didn't always while on earth.
One may fill-in-the-blank, replacing Paul's name and behavior with any other Christian saint. Voilà.
Jennie said...
"Leo,
I and the author of the article I quoted from are going by the fact that scripture does not teach us to pray to the departed, and scripture in several places warns against trying to contact the departed."
Jenny, is your spite for the Catholic Church so great that you must twist and contort everything to fit a gravely erroneous conclusion?
Now you change the word 'dead' to 'departed' to try to once again cloud the issue. I give you more credit than that. The scripture you quoted was talking about necromancy, or having seances.
The saints who have left this world are most certainly in heaven and you should thank God that they are praying for your conversion too. God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Hillary,
You said,"
How can we be sure that the saints we are contacting are really in heaven? They could be in purgatory or worse. Do we possess the ability to see where people are in the afterlife?"
Good question...The souls in purgatory can pray for us, since they have the assurance of eternal life. However, we are to pray to those who have been canonized by the Church, since their miracles AFTER death are a good indication of their standing before God.
Remember when Jesus said, If you don't believe me, at least believe because of what I have done", referring to His miracles.
You may be surprised to learn that there are numerous miracles of the Eucharist, and saints who were never embalmed but their bodies have never decomposed (incorruptibles). There are hosts that have turned to flesh and blood and science has proclaimed some outright miracles.
Jesus performs these miracles on behalf of His Church just as He did to prove that He was God when He walked on the earth.
we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..."
Along with that, we have the assurance ... or confidence ... that the saints in heaven pray for us.
Oh, wait a minute. I got it: where are the dead in Christ? They are not in heaven, are they?
Hillary, you also said"
We remember the first part of the story, but we conveniently forget the last part, which shows that NOT EVEN ABRAHAM was unable to intercede for the rich man's brothers! So much for intercessory prayer by dead folks in the afterlife!"
WE did not conveniently forget anything. These saints are praying on our behalf, but that does not mean that God will automatically grant their request.
Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? Why? Jesus is the only mediator, right? Were all the prayers answered to your liking? Do you still ask others to pray for you? So much for intercessory prayers by others...yet you keep doing it. Why? because you know deep down that this is what God intends.
And, again, Hillary, they are NOT dead folks if they are in heaven.
Leo,
Jenny, is your spite for the Catholic Church so great that you must twist and contort everything to fit a gravely erroneous conclusion?
I have no spite towards the catholic church; I do believe that it teaches a false gospel and that must be refuted.
Now you change the word 'dead' to 'departed' to try to once again cloud the issue.
I used the word departed because every time I use the word dead you object to it. I also believe God is the God of the living, but I am ruled by His word that teaches as I have said above in my post. I am not using the word departed because of some nefarious design of deception.
Do you see that you are the one who is reading things into scripture trying to prove it's ok to pray to the saints? I know catholics don't believe they are bound to obey scripture, and they obey the official church teachings over scripture, but scripture is God's inspired word, and it holds precedence over any other teachings by right.
You may be surprised to learn that there are numerous miracles of the Eucharist, and saints who were never embalmed but their bodies have never decomposed (incorruptibles). There are hosts that have turned to flesh and blood and science has proclaimed some outright miracles.
Leo, I am very familiar with those kinds of 'miracles' but they should not be taken as proof of God's favor and of sainthood. Just as the experiences of the mystics should not be taken at face value. Unfortunately our enemy Satan can appear as an angel of light, send wolves in sheep's clothing to deceive, and produce lying signs and wonders to deceive many. See 2 Thessalonians 2:
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
See also Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 13: 11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
2 Corinthians 11:12-15 12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
This is not pleasant to hear, but miracles are not proof of anything. We know Jesus' miracles were legitimate because He Himself performed them and showed Himself to be the Son of God by His word, which was the same as the scriptures. The miracles of the catholic church are to show that her word is a good as God's, when it contradicts it. I know you don't see this, but it has been shown, and will be shown again.
Teresa,
Oh, wait a minute. I got it: where are the dead in Christ? They are not in heaven, are they?
The 'dead in Christ' are certainly in heaven. There are many people who are called saints by the RCC that are certainly saints, but there are probably some that are called saints that are not truly saved and are being prayed to.
The 'dead in Christ' are certainly in heaven.
Great, thanks for setting me straight. I was thinking rapture.
miracles are not proof of anything ... the miracles of the catholic church are to show that her word is a good as God's
Well, if this is your position, all I can say is "wow" - you've got it bad. I always thought miracles were gifts from God. I never thought I'd think Matthew 12:24 about anybody but, God forgive me and congratulations, I'm thinking it.
Leo said:
The souls in purgatory can pray for us, since they have the assurance of eternal life. However, we are to pray to those who have been canonized by the Church, since their miracles AFTER death are a good indication of their standing before God.
Leo, I see nowhere in scripture where a place called purgatory exists. I just used that as an example based upon your teachings. How can people in a nonexistent place be praying for us?
Now this thing about miracles occuring after the death of a saint. How do you know to attribute the miracle to the dead saint? I see no evidence in the Bible of people who have passed on, performing miracles after death. None. The closest example I can find is when a dead man came to life again after his body was carelessly thrown into the tomb of Elisha (2 Kings 13:21). In this instance, no one had prayed to Elisha for this to occur. They were burying the man and inadvertently threw his body into Elisha's tomb because they spied a band of Moabites coming upon them. The fact that Elisha's bones were still in the tomb testified that Elisha WAS NOT IN HEAVEN. Elisha had not been resurrected to life by God yet, therefore it was IMPOSSIBLE for Elisha to perform this miracle.
Another good example is king Saul. King Saul wanted to make contact with the prophet Samuel after death, and hired a witch to bring up Samuel. If praying to the dead was permissible, why did not king Saul just pray to Samuel?
We misunderstand the ministry of the saints in heaven. Their purpose there is not for us to contact them to act as intercessors, or miracle workers, although I am sure they are also praying for our salvation as well. The saints in heaven are those men and women who have been redeemed from the earth and are now FIRSTFRUITS unto God and the Lamb. Do you want to know the total number? It is 144,000 (Revelation 14:1-5). The practice of adding saints by cannonization is unscriptural, as the full number of saints are already in heaven, i.e. 144,000 as seen by John the Revelator.
Peace and blessings.
Teresa,
Great, thanks for setting me straight. I was thinking rapture.
Paul says, 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.'
The spirits of the departed believers are in heaven, but their bodies are in the grave. When the rapture occurs, their bodies will be resurrected and united with their spirits as the Lord returns to earth. So all believers will then have glorified bodies as Christ did after resurrection.
Matt. 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
Teresa, did you not see all the passages about lying signs and wonders? If wonders are being done, but that person or church is teaching false doctrines, then the signs are lying signs. I know you won't agree with this.
I certainly am not attributing Christ's miracles to demons, but those of the RCC are in question.
I would have thought you'd have figured out 'my position' by now. I haven't kept it a secret.
The fact that Elisha's bones were still in the tomb testified that Elisha WAS NOT IN HEAVEN. Elisha had not been resurrected to life by God yet, therefore it was IMPOSSIBLE for Elisha to perform this miracle.
Hillary,
Elisha was not in heaven, true, but he was in paradise or the bosom of Abraham, which was part of Hades (death or the grave)before Jesus died. But Elisha's bones were not reunited with his spirit until Jesus died and the Old Testament saints were redeemed and resurrected. I believe that's what happened when Jesus descended into Hades and preached to the spirits there. Those who had waited for Him by faith were redeemed and resurrected. The rest of the believers will be resurrected at the rapture, or caught up alive. If I'm wrong about the Old Testament saints being resurrected after Jesus' death, correct me, but that's my understanding.
Jennie, I had gone to bed, but I just had to get up to post this comment. I felt like I could not rest until I posted this.
Someone mentioned Paul as being in heaven as a saint praying for us. I am going to say now that Paul would be EMBARRASSED AND ALARMED by any type of devotion to him. Please read the following account:
Acts 14:8-18 (New International Version)
"8In Lystra there sat a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked. 9He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed 10and called out, "Stand up on your feet!" At that, the man jumped up and began to walk.
11When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have come down to us in human form!" 12Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.
14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15"Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. 16In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." 18Even with these words, they had difficulty keeping the crowd from sacrificing to them."
Even though Paul explained that they were just mere men, the people went ahead anyway and sacrificed to them to honor them. Devotion was certainly not something Paul wanted.
Good night now. I will continue in the morning with talk about the Old Testament saints and the resurrection.
Jennie said:
But Elisha's bones were not reunited with his spirit until Jesus died and the Old Testament saints were redeemed and resurrected.
You are correct in saying that the Old Testament saints were not redeemed/resurrected until the death of Jesus. In Matthew's account of the gospel, we see the graves opening up at Jesus's death,and the saints resurrected after His resurrection.
Matthew 27: 50-54, NKJV
"50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
There were some exceptions to this resurrection. Notice that the passage says "many bodies of the saints" and NOT "all saints" (vs.52). Enoch and Elijah had been translated previously in their time. Moses was resurrected after his death in his time(Deuteronomy 34:6; Matthew 17:3; Jude 9). King David was never resurrected and therefore not in heaven (Acts 2:29,34). We expect ALL SAINTS (and by saints I mean saved folks), including Old Testament saints who were never resurrected and New Testament saints, will be resurrected at the second coming of Jesus, in the first resurrection.
For people to claim that all the saints are in heaven is just erroneous. If David, the "man after God's own heart" and the progenitor of the lineage of David, and ancestor of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is not in heaven, then who else of us are not there? How can we be sure that the saints we are praying to are there? They could still be in their graves!
Think about it.
Peace and blessings.
Jennie, you said,
"Now you change the word 'dead' to 'departed' to try to once again cloud the issue.
I used the word departed because every time I use the word dead you object to it. I also believe God is the God of the living, but I am ruled by His word that teaches as I have said above in my post. I am not using the word departed because of some nefarious design of deception."
Sorry, but you are not being honest with me or yourself, giving you the benefit of the doubt. You are using a different word precisely because you cannot accept scripture as written. Any OBJECTIVE person versed in logic, reading your posts would plainly see that you are contradicting yourself all over the place.
The problem is that you are not really seeking Truth above all else. Your primary mission is to slam the Catholic Church. This has effectively blinded you to Truth.
A reasonable person would approach the Church objectively, to see if perhaps everything she teaches is, in fact, in harmony with Scripture. This is why so many brilliant Protestant theologians have become Catholic. There are also a number who privately admit that they know this to be true but they cannot give up their livelihoods.
Sadly, you are indeed acting like the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24. Be careful whose work you ascribe to the power of Beelzebul.
August 01, 2009
Daughter of Wisdom said...
Leo said:
The souls in purgatory can pray for us, since they have the assurance of eternal life. However, we are to pray to those who have been canonized by the Church, since their miracles AFTER death are a good indication of their standing before God.
Leo, I see nowhere in scripture where a place called purgatory exists. I just used that as an example based upon your teachings. How can people in a nonexistent place be praying for us?"
Hillary,
The only official teaching on purgatory is that it exists and that it is the place of final purification.
Most people are honest with themselves and acknowledge that they have not yet been made perfect. Yet, one must be perfectly pure to enter heaven. As such, we cannot enter until every last vestige of sinfulness is gone.
Imagine holding something against another person when you die. Now imagine that this is the first person you see in heaven. Your response would not be one of love and it would no longer be heaven.
God does not brainwash us when we die. We must also deal with every last penny that we owe. Every word we have said will be called back to us when we stand before Christ immediately upon death.
Purgatory was believed in by the Jews as well and notice that Jesus did not correct that as an incorrect teaching. He even spoke of the person who built his home on sand and that "he himself will be saved, but as if escaping through fire."
Imagine seeing Jesus face to face at that instant. Forget that 'me and Jesus, my buddy' nonsense.
Remember how his beloved disciple John responded when he first saw Him in his vision? "I fell at His feet as though dead." That should put things in perspective.
We too, will be in total awe at the beatific vision.
Jennie, you said,
"The miracles of the catholic church are to show that her word is a good as God's, when it contradicts it"
Be very careful because you are coming close to blapheming. Christ is performing the miracles through the Church to show that He is the head and He speaks through her, just as He performed miracles to prove He is God.
The Church interprets scripture without error and always combines Faith with Reason. You may not like the interpretation, but it is impossible to show where the Church goes against Faith and Reason. Your response is to simply say that your interpretation is the correct one. Christ uses the miracles specifically to back up His Church. Where are all of the miracles to back up your church?
I sense the same slow burn within you that the Pharisees had when Jesus performed all of those cool miracles to spite them. They responded by attributing His power to Beelzebul and this helped to seal their fate.
I caution you as a brother in Christ, not to do the same.
So Leo, basically what you are saying in your comment post about purgatory is that there is no scriptural teaching, except a possible allusion to it by Jesus, and that it was a Jewish belief.
Now Leo, come on, a lets reason a minute. Firstly, a place like purgatory would have been a very important doctrine if it existed, and the Bible would have mentioned it and taught about it. Secondly, not because it was a Jewish belief meant it was Biblical. During the time of Jesus, the Jews believed many things that were not scriptural, and that was why Jesus's doctrines were at odds with the Jews' doctrines. Thirdly, I found that passage you quoted to prove purgatory:
1 Corinthians 3:14-15 (New King James Version)
14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
This passage is really talking about the work we do for the kingdom of Christ. If our work is good, then we will get a reward; if our work is unprofitable, then our work will be destroyed, yet our souls will still be saved.
Leo, I don't want to appear to beat up on you, but God has called us to put trust in His Word, and not the words and suppositions of men.
Yes,it is true that only perfect people will inherit God's kingdom.
"And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns" (Phillipians 1:6, NLT).
But that work of perfection will not be accomplished in purgatory in flames of torment. That work will be brought to completion on the day Christ returns to earth.
Malachi 4: 1-2, NKJV
1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts,
“ That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
When Jesus returns, He will heal us of our sin problem.
Leo,
You are using a different word precisely because you cannot accept scripture as written. Any OBJECTIVE person versed in logic, reading your posts would plainly see that you are contradicting yourself all over the place.
Ok. What scripture am I specifically not accepting? I am not accepting the Catholic teaching about praying to Mary and the saints, but tell me what scripture I am ignoring. I've already shown you which ones you are ignoring by these practices.
Leo,
A reasonable person would approach the Church objectively, to see if perhaps everything she teaches is, in fact, in harmony with Scripture. This is why so many brilliant Protestant theologians have become Catholic. There are also a number who privately admit that they know this to be true but they cannot give up their livelihoods.
Leo, you have no idea how I have approached the teachings of the Catholic church. You are just assuming that I am spitefully attacking it without cause. I have been reading about this subject from both protestant and catholic perspectives for a long time, and comparing her teachings to scripture and history, I have found them to be full of error (as also are many protestant churches).
Many brilliant protestant theologians have become catholic, but the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. They were not looking solely at God's word by their own testimony, but at the teachings of men who were not inspired, to make their decisions. That is why they converted. They seem to have trusted in their own intellects and that of other men instead of in God.
Sadly, you are indeed acting like the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24. Be careful whose work you ascribe to the power of Beelzebul.
If you are comparing the Catholic Church with Christ Himself, then the Catholic Church had better be exalting His word above all others and not adding to His word and preventing people from coming to Him. The Catholic Church is not Christ, and has departed from teaching His pure word a long long time ago. False teachers are judged, and are not part of the body of Christ.
Leo,
The Church interprets scripture without error and always combines Faith with Reason. You may not like the interpretation, but it is impossible to show where the Church goes against Faith and Reason. Your response is to simply say that your interpretation is the correct one. Christ uses the miracles specifically to back up His Church. Where are all of the miracles to back up your church?
Not only does the RCC not interpret scripture without error, it adds many many teachings to scripture that contradict it. I'm not surprised that you can't see this; The Lord warned His disciples that Satan appears as an angel of light and sends wolves in sheep's clothing to try to deceive people. These false teachers are going to be very hard to discern unless their teachings are compared to scripture as the final rule.
You know that the RCC says that tradition is equal to scripture, and all of the traditions that she has that the reformers objected to were added much later, and did not come from the original church of the Apostles. So her traditions are later additions, and could not have come from the Apostles, but she claims they do. Her traditions have the effect of covering up the simple gospel, and putting barriers or steps between God and man, when Christ's death removed the barriers, by tearing the veil of separation.
Examples of these barriers or extra steps between God and man, are: saying we have to come to God by priests and sacraments, and by praying to saints and Mary, and actually saying Mary is 'our hope of salvation' our 'gate to heaven' and other blasphemies. You say you are justified by faith and by works and by accepting Church teachings, when the Bible teaches we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves: and that our faith produces works, but works don't justify us by themselves. The RCC has put the veil back that Christ's death tore in two. That is what I have learned over the last few years, and it's become more and more clear.
The Bible does not teach that miracles will show the true church, but it does teach that there are lying signs and wonders. The Bible also teaches that those that keep His word are His disciples.
The church that has 'signs' is not teaching the Word, and the church that was teaching the Word more purely has, especially in this century, departed from that, in general. There is still a remnant in all the churches that is faithful. The lack of unity and power is because of false teachings that divide us. The church as a whole is going to be judged, and the remnant will be purified. In Revelation, Jesus calls His churches to repentance and back to purity and fellowship with Him. Are we going to listen, or are we going to stubbornly assume we are rich, when we are poor and naked? I speak for myself as well as the whole church.
You know Jennie, I have been looking at the pictures of the "incorruptibles" which Leo mentioned on the internet. To be honest, I have never heard of them before, but you know what? The fact that their bodies are present with us today is PROOF that they are not in heaven. Lack of a body is the proof of resurrection. Lack of Jesus's body proved He was resurrected.
I know some people believe that the spirit precedes the body in heaven, but our spirit needs a body to function. That's just the way we are built. Body + spirit = living person. Body - spirit = dead person. Just ask a mortician.
Peace and blessings.
Hillary,
Remember, Paul said, 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.' So when a believer dies, his or her spirit goes to heaven immediately, but their body stays in the grave, until resurrection day.
The evidence that the miracles are of God or not has to be whether or not the person taught the truth or not, compared to the rule of truth, God's word. Just like whether a prophet was true was whether his word was in line with scripture and also whether it came true.
Jennie said,
"Leo, you have no idea how I have approached the teachings of the Catholic church. You are just assuming that I am spitefully attacking it without cause. I have been reading about this subject from both protestant and catholic perspectives for a long time, and comparing her teachings to scripture and history, I have found them to be full of error (as also are many protestant churches)."
Sorry, Jennie, your words betray you. You are indeed acting just like the Pharisees did by your approach. They refused to accept that Jesus was who He said He was and they tried to use scripture against Him. They had a preconceived erroneous notion of what they wanted the Messiah to be like and they could not accept Him as He was.
You approach the Church exactly the same way. You want me to believe that you are sincere in your approach, but your approach is devoid of logic and objectivity.
Your sources are vehemently anti-Catholic for the most part and they are full of error.
If you are really sincere in your quest for Truth, you would not be acting that way. Do you really think that God has misled all of us believers so badly that the world had to wait for you to come along 2000 years later to set us straight?
You yourself acknowledged that the Church has never changed her teaching on Morals. That, in and of itself, should make you think twice about attacking it.
You are trying to worship Jesus Christ whom you show by your comments that you really do not know in the fullness of His Truth by attacking His Church.
Jennie, even your claim of 'Sola Scriptura' is unbiblical and you go off spouting illogical defenses of your positions.
You have no reasonable defense whatsoever for verses where Jesus breathed on His apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound. You have no reasonable defense to Peter being the keys ALONE to the kingdom of heaven.
I can go on and on. You, on the other hand, gave me examples that I was logically able to explain conformity with Church teaching and scripture.
You really approach the Faith like a liberal. You refuse to acknowledge errors in your sources and you carpet bomb with confusion to avoid the real issues. You have not been able to show a single source that I used that was in error or was a blatant lie, like the sources you used.
Let's think about that. Who is on the side of Truth?
This is NOT an argument and I am not trying to do anything but share the Truth and you attack with lying sources.
What is your real issue with the Church? I am now convinced that there is an underlying issue at the root of your obvious protests.
Leo,
If you want to continue to comment here, I'm asking that you refrain from personal attacks and just deal with the subject at hand. I try very hard not to say anything personally derogatory, even though I sometimes say things about the Church that you don't like or agree with. I have never said anything about you personally, as far as I know, and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are a born again believer, even though I believe the RCC as an institution is not correct. I know that there are believers in every church group, even if they are incorrect in some or many things. I hope you can give me that same courtesy.
Also please stay on subject and don't introduce subjects like machine-gun fire, because I'm not obligated or inclined to answer everything you throw out. This isn't a test.
Also, Leo, just because I don't have an answer for all your objections immediately, or ever, doesn't mean there isn't a good answer. Though it pains me to to say it, I don't know everything(yet).
Leo, here's a video you might enjoy:
http://www.exchangedlife.com/humor/videos/llama_song.shtml
Maybe this is how our words are getting across to each other ;)
Hey guys, lets not get bent out of shape over this. Surely we cannot expect others to always accept everything we say as truth. I certainly do not expect everyone to believe everything I say, even though I am convinced within myself of what I speak. Let the Holy Spirit do the convicting - that's His job, not ours.
Peace and blessings :-)
Jennie,
Fair enough...I apologize for the attacks coming across as personal. That was not the intent. However, I reread what I wrote and, yes, they do come across that way. So, again, I apologize. My comments were out of line.
You must also understand that when you attack Mary, the saints, and the Church, you are attacking my mother, my brothers and my sisters and I do take that personally. Who are my mother, my brothers and sisters,but those hear the word of God and obey it. I would feel the same way if some atheist or muslim were to attack your character.
There is a huge difference between calling out the sins of those in the Church and impugning the Church's character.
This, however, was not my real frustration.
You may or may not see it, but my concern is for the fact that you are misleading others with the material that you present as fact. We both know the part about the millstone and casting into the sea.
You are presenting on a blog as a teacher, yet you are consistently using sources that are in error and/or full of fabrications by those with an agenda to attack the Church which Christ founded. We as Christians are sometimes called naive because we have a tendency to accept what we want to accept on blind faith when it supports our position.
Do you know how frustrating it is to try to have an objective discussion when the other person presents flawed data? Most of the time is spent simply trying to show the error in the data. When I say that your sources have errors, I am not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
Loraine Boettner is one of those sources that has been quoted and requoted by anti-Catholics and is almost a bible of attacks. As a test some years ago, I remember that there were 20 errors in two consecutive random pages upon opening his book.
Heck,if even half of what you said about the Church were true, I would run from it myself.
Perhaps it too much to ask, but is it possible to have an exchange where we can discuss the 'reasonableness' of Church teaching in conformance with scripture? I have been trying quite unsuccessfully to have a discussion purely using scripture at face value, combined with reason. Can we do so without external sources and without carpet bombing and 'machine gun fire'?
This would allow us to discuss one point at a time to try to better understand what we each believe, why we believe it, and how it fits in the overall salvation story.
It really is important for me to show you how the true Catholic Faith really makes perfect sense and how you are attacking something which does not exist.
Jennie, we both claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and yet we believe quite differently on key issues which do make a difference for our salvation. We are also quite passionate, and this is a good thing.
I don't have a problem with disagreeing with each other, but you truly do not show that you understand my position. I am asking you to try to understand completely, and then you have the perfect freedom to reject it.
Jennie said...
Leo, here's a video you might enjoy:
http://www.exchangedlife.com/humor/videos/llama_song.shtml
Maybe this is how our words are getting across to each other ;)
Ah, you do have a sense of humor! That video was great! Now I believe that I am dealing with a real person for the first time!
Sharing the Faith is supposed to be fun and a trip down discovery lane!
Daughter of Wisdom said...
Hey guys, lets not get bent out of shape over this. Surely we cannot expect others to always accept everything we say as truth. I certainly do not expect everyone to believe everything I say, even though I am convinced within myself of what I speak. Let the Holy Spirit do the convicting - that's His job, not ours"
You are 100% correct. Thank you for stating the obvious.
Okay now...Is this discussion open, or is it closed?
It's open :)
Leo,
I thank you for the apology. You are forgiven. I will try to respond to the rest of your comment ASAP, as I am getting ready for school to start tomorrow and am rushing around like a chicken with its head cut off right now :)
I wanted to note that my husband thinks the old testament saints were not resurrected after Jesus died, as I said, but that their spirits were brought out of paradise and into heaven when they were redeemed by Christ's death. Many of them appeared to people in Jerusalem at this time, according to the gospels. My husband said they would be resurrected at the same time as the new testament saints, when Christ returns.
Jennie, unfortunately there is no way I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the saints which were resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 with Jesus, were Old Testament saints. That conclusion was reached based upon taking "here a little, there a little" from other scriptures.
Isaiah made a prophecy about a coming resurrection. "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise" (Isaiah 26:19). In the book of Ezekiel we read,"Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, O people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel" (Ezekiel 37:12). Those prophecies were fulfilled in Matthew 27:52-53:
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Paul confirmed this event in Ephesians 4:8 (NASB):
Therefore it says,"WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Yes it does say their bodies arose and came out of the graves. I see.
In the book of Ezekiel we read,"Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, O people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel" (Ezekiel 37:12).
I wonder if this might also refer to the rebirth of the nation of Israel, as well as the resurrection.
Okay I see what you mean. The Jews were in exile in Babylon, and God was giving them hope for the restoration of the nation of Israel. Here is the thing: Verses 1-10 describes the vision, and verses 11-14 is the interpretation of the vision. In the interpretation, God specifically says that the people would "come up out of your graves" (vs. 12). This had not happened prior to Jesus's resurrection. In addition, the vision was for "the whole house of Israel" (vs. 11). Prior to Jesus, no resurrection of the "whole house of Israel" had ocurred.
Now some would like to apply this scripture to the modern re-birth of the nation of Israel, but the modern Israel does not properly fulfill this prophecy. Although in a metaphoric sense this prophecy could be applied to modern Israel, where are the twelve tribes that make up the whole house of Israel? Where are the Reubenites, Levites, Simeonites, Zebulunites, Issacharites, Danites, Gadites, Napthtalites, Ephraimites, Manassehaites, and Benjaminites? The only tribe we seem to have intact are the Jews from the house of Judah, some descendants of the Levites, and maybe a few remnants from some of the other lost tribes. In the time of Jesus, I personally believe that representatives from each of these twelve tribes were resurrected from their graves.
Representative members from the twelve tribes of Israel were resurrected with Jesus, and taken to heaven. That's what I believe.
Therefore it says,"WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (Ephesians 4:8, NASB).
And if you don't believe the Old Testament saints were "captives" here is what Isaiah said:
"O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name" (Isaiah 26:13).
In addition, they were all held "captive" by death, until Christ freed them, by resurrecting their dead bodies.
Interesting prophecies!
Here is the thing: Nothing takes God's people by surprise. In Amos it says God does nothing unless He reveals it to His servants the prophets.
"Surely the Lord GOD does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7, NASB).
A spiritual event of God on the human race is ALWAYS preceded by a prophecy, therefore, nothing is a surprise. The resurrection of the saints in Jesus time was NOT A SURPRISE because it was predicted hundreds of years earlier. Our job now is to continue on in the prophecies with a PROPER understanding, and await their sure fulfillment.
Peace and blessings.
You may or may not see it, but my concern is for the fact that you are misleading others with the material that you present as fact. We both know the part about the millstone and casting into the sea.
My concern is that the RCC is not teaching the true gospel, having obscured it with many extra-biblical teachings and practices.
You are presenting on a blog as a teacher, yet you are consistently using sources that are in error and/or full of fabrications by those with an agenda to attack the Church which Christ founded. We as Christians are sometimes called naive because we have a tendency to accept what we want to accept on blind faith when it supports our position.
If you don't like a source you are free to tell me what is wrong specifically instead of just saying it is 'full of error.' It may just be that you have accepted what the Church says, and the source is contradicting this. The source may be correct, and the Church may be wrong. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it is in error.
Do you know how frustrating it is to try to have an objective discussion when the other person presents flawed data? Most of the time is spent simply trying to show the error in the data. When I say that your sources have errors, I am not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. You haven' shown me any flaws, just shown that the Church disagrees, or you disagree, with my sources. Give some specifics to show if something is incorrect and why.
Loraine Boettner is one of those sources that has been quoted and requoted by anti-Catholics and is almost a bible of attacks. As a test some years ago, I remember that there were 20 errors in two consecutive random pages upon opening his book.
Are these really errors, or as I said before, are they just things you disagree with? What are they?
Leo,
Heck,if even half of what you said about the Church were true, I would run from it myself.
How do you know it is not true?
Perhaps it too much to ask, but is it possible to have an exchange where we can discuss the 'reasonableness' of Church teaching in conformance with scripture? I have been trying quite unsuccessfully to have a discussion purely using scripture at face value, combined with reason. Can we do so without external sources and without carpet bombing and 'machine gun fire'?
This would allow us to discuss one point at a time to try to better understand what we each believe, why we believe it, and how it fits in the overall salvation story.
If you want to do this, we can do a post on it. I don't know where to start, unless maybe we talk about the catechism, and what it teaches about justification, to start with. Any ideas?
Leo,
I looked up Loraine Boettner, whom I had never heard of before I quoted him earlier. I had found the quote in an article by another author.
I just found an article by a catholic writer discussing some errors in Boettner's writing. This writer describes some errors here: http://www.catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.asp
I only have his word on whether these are really errors, but if indeed they are, it doesn't necessarily follow that everything Boettner says is in error. Also because some writers use sloppy scholarship doesn't mean all objections to catholicism are unfounded. There are many writers who bring out legitimate and well-supported arguments.
Unfortunately, people like Boettner, and apparently Hislop, make it easy for catholics to dismiss other legitimate criticisms, and give protestant scholarship a bad name.
Jennie said...
Leo,
How do you know it is not true?"
When I researched some of these authors years ago, I found error upon error. The problem lies in the fact that there is a huge tendency for enemies of the Church to quote everything they hear that is anti-Catholic as gospel and it eventually becomes accepted as fact. Hitler used this concept that if you tell a lie often enough, people will begin to believe it.
I only gave one example on Boettner, where he used a fabricated 'letter from a bishop' which was in the news at that time and the bishop publicly called it out with repeated disclaimers. The problem with Boettner is that he is used as primary source material for many anti-Catholics.
Everything the Church teaches, the encyclicals, etc, can be found on line at the Vatican website. The Church speaks only as she hears from the Holy Spirit and, as such, has nothing whatsoever to hide.
You also said,"Also because some writers use sloppy scholarship doesn't mean all objections to catholicism are unfounded."
I would be careful to simply dismiss it as sloppy scholarship. I am saying that there is ample evidence that these individuals had a premeditated mission to discredit the Church, as opposed to find Truth.
Don't forget that rat poison is 99% delicious and nutritious food for the rat. Unfortunately for the rat, the 1% poison is enough to take its physical life.
I would be careful not to consume material that is laced with spiritual poison.(far in excess of 1%)
This is why I commented that you have not been able to find any error in my sources. I am careful to only present only factual information on history. If you eve find error, please do correct me on it.
Jennie said,"If you want to do this, we can do a post on it. I don't know where to start, unless maybe we talk about the catechism, and what it teaches about justification, to start with. Any ideas?"
How about this? Let's start with the concept of the Church and authority and how it follows from Scripture? I would like to start there if possible and I would really like to deal with Mary as well, to show you why scripture is in accord with her perpetual virginity and her assigned role in salvation history.
I just want an opportunity to show you some different insights and why there beautiful agreement with Scripture.
Incidentally, I read your husband's beliefs and you may be surprised to learn that many of his comments are very much in line with Church teaching...more so than most Protestants.
How about this? Let's start with the concept of the Church and authority and how it follows from Scripture?
My vote is for justification. :-) (Leo, it's Jennie's blog)
Leo,
How about justification as taught in the catechism; or the Passover as foreshadowing.
Jennie said...
Leo,
How about justification as taught in the catechism; or the Passover as foreshadowing."
Jennie,
The Passover as foreshadowing sounds good to start. This way we will deal with the core of our Catholic Faith.
Leo,
I'll look into doing a post on it soon.
Thanks!
By the way, Leo, I had made some comments related to the eucharist and passover under the predestination post. I don't know if you've seen them yet.
Nope, had not...still look forward to your post.
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