Wednesday, June 24, 2009

"Behold, I lay in Zion a Stumbling Stone"

In Romans 9:33 (See the Romans passages below) Paul quotes from Old Testament scripture in Isaiah (see the two passages just below) to show the church in Rome that Jesus the Cornerstone becomes a stumbling stone to those who, like Israel, try to pursue righteousness by works of the law, even God's law, instead of seeking it by faith. In Romans 10:3-4 Paul elaborates, saying that those who seek to establish their own righteousness by works have not submitted to the righteousness of God which comes by faith, 'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.' In Romans 11:5-6 Paul goes on to say that the remnant of the elect is saved by grace and not of works, 'otherwise grace is no longer grace,' meaning that if we try to be saved by works, then we have pushed the grace of God out of the picture. In Romans 11:7-8 (see below) Paul states that the elect, saved by grace through faith, have obtained righteousness, but those who sought to obtain it by their own works (even works of God's law) did not obtain it and were blinded: "God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day."
Paul further quotes from Psalm 69:22-23:
“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
This passage from the Psalm is prophetic, speaking of the Jews who crucified Christ and persecuted and killed the prophets before Him and the Christians after Him, because the Jews could not understand and accept God's word; they thought their own righteousness upheld them as God's chosen people, but it was God's hand and His righteousness. Therefore the table of fellowship which they think they share and the 'well-being' they think they have has become a snare and a trap to them, and they are blind to the fact that they are enslaved to sin.
See Romans 4:1-8 which tells us that Abraham was justified not by works but by faith which was imputed to him for righteousness. It says "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." This shows that trying to merit salvation by good works counts as a debt against us, but when we believe on Christ then His righteousness is imputed to our account.
In verses 13-15 of Romans 4, Paul says that salvation is through the promise of God by faith and NOT through works of the law, because 'the law brings about wrath' since all the law can do is show us that we cannot keep it. In verse 16 it says 'it is of faith that it might be according to grace' so that the promise of God 'might be sure to all the seed' including the gentiles who believe the promise by faith.
In verses 20-25 Paul teaches that Abraham didn't 'waver in unbelief' but was 'fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform' and 'therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness."' Paul finishes "It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." This shows again that righteousness will be imputed to those who by faith believe in God because of Christ's sacrifice for our sins; this is how we are justified or made right with God.
We stumble over the stumbling stone when we try to justify ourselves before God by good works instead of believing God's word by faith and being washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. First we are justified by faith, and then good works come into play for reborn believers as we abide in Christ and walk in the Spirit. We are new creatures with a new desire to please God. We begin to become more like Christ as we abide in His word and are sanctified by the Spirit that lives in us. We are first saved by grace and then we continue to walk in faith by His grace, not by our own power. See Titus 3:4-8a and Galatians 3:3-7
Titus 3:4-8a
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.
Galatians 3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

ALL THESE PASSAGES BELOW ARE QUOTED IN THE POST ABOVE
Isaiah 8:14 (New King James Version)
14 He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 28:16 (New King James Version)
16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD:


“ Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation,
A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation;
Whoever believes will not act hastily.

Romans 9:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:


“ Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Romans 10:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 11:
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:


“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”


Romans 4:1-8 and 13-25
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

32 comments:

Daughter of Wisdom said...

"First we are justified by faith, and then good works come into play because of our gratitude as we abide in Christ and walk in the Spirit."

Hi Jennie,

Quite an extensive exposition here, and yes, we may do some good works because we are grateful to God, but the main reason why we do good works after we are saved is because God took away our old sin nature and gave us a new Christ-like nature, called the "new man."

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away, behold all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

"That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Ephesians 4: 22-24).

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

It is our change of heart that gives us the desire and ability to do good works. God had ordained us from the beginning to live righteous and holy lives, but because of sin, we have all fallen short of His glory. Through Christ's sacrifice we are being restored back to righteousness and holy living.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircimcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2: 10-13).

Jennie said...

"but the main reason why we do good works after we are saved is because God took away our old sin nature and gave us a new Christ-like nature, called the "new man.""
Thanks for the clarification; I should have made that clearer.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
I love this passage; and it shows that it is God who changes us by His Spirit, making each of us a new creature in Christ, so we can walk in His statutes.

Jennie said...

Daughter,
I edited that part about the reason we do good works after we are reborn by the Spirit.

Moonshadow said...

Since Elena turned you down, would you mind if I accept the invitation?

Please let me first apologize for my comment on the Pastor Tony Bartolucci post. Not the part about praying for him: I have and will continue to.

But accusing him of controlling what his congregation reads. I do believe that many pastors manipulate the lives of their members but I didn't have enough evidence to charge Pastor Bartolucci so. IOW, I was stereotyping him, extrapolating from his meager hints ... and shouldn't have done that.

Maybe if I listen to the rest of the sermons, his character will become more clear. I can't see myself listening to the rest, 'though.

Peace.

Jennie said...

I'd be glad if you would accept my invitation, Teresa.
Thank you for the apology; I believe if you listen more you will see his heart for the truth, and his concern for all people to know it, including catholics; he was a catholic growing up.

Moonshadow said...

Thank you for accepting my apology. I appreciate it very much.

Well, maybe I will listen to more. It depends on how I feel about myself.

I mean, listening to someone denigrate my faith isn't often an upbeat, pleasant experience. Maybe because I really do listen and consider and take into account his perspective and try to see how he could be correct. That takes a lot more energy, even, than simply dismissing or actively refuting.

How often you've tried it, sympathetic reading or listening to someone you strongly disagree with? Trying their arguments on to see how they might fit after all? On the contrary, I recall you saying that you've already pretty much made up your mind about things, so I'm not sure how much of a fair hearing you can give. I won't even ask you to assure me otherwise.

I caught that he was a Catholic growing up but that's hardly an endorsement. No offense to you with your similar past. However, how do you feel about people who become Catholic and try to convert their former church, then? That's meant rhetorically so you can perhaps empathize with how I feel deep-down about his defection. Baptists aren't the only ones with hearts for the lost. :-)

Moonshadow said...

The go-to Catholic on Paul’s Letter to the Romans is Fr. Joseph Fitzmyer, SJ.

In a collection from Baker Academic that was occasioned by a lecture series at Notre Dame, inspired by the signing of the Joint Declaration on Justification between LWF and the RCC in 1999, Fr. Fitzmyer's contribution is the lone Catholic voice discussing justification by faith in Pauline theology as none other is needed.

Not only for the reason that Pauline theology is his speciality (and he has other, extra-biblical specialities as you'll see; the Dead Sea Scrolls, for instance) but also he can thereby largely agree with Protestant exegetes on Paul and yet temper monergism with a fuller look at New Testament soteriology.

Because, that's what we are talking about here, I believe, monergism vs. synergism, as R. C. Sproul would put it.

Let's first do away with any suspicion that Fr. Fitzmyer is sympathetic to the New Perspective on Paul, btw. I could quote him from his essay directly but, rather, just take my word that Fitzmyer has no place for Dunn’s position, e.g., whom Fitzmyer refutes by name.

Since New Testament writers like Paul drew vocabulary for theological concepts from the LXX, that 3rd - 2nd c. BC translation is an indispensable resource for appreciating how Judaism, the progenitor of Christianity, is expressed in Greek.

"In the postexilic period, however, tsedeq ("righteousness") as a quality of God acquired an added nuance, especially in Deutero-Isaiah, as it came to describe God's execution of his role in the covenant, acquitting his rebellious people, manifesting toward them his gracious salvific activity in a just judgment." (pg. 79) The word is used the same way in the Jewish writings at Qumran. "... even though the Pauline phrase dikaiosyne theou ("the righteousness of God") is found verbatim nowhere in the [Greek] Old Testament, it does turn up here [at Qumran]." (pg 80)

"Paul sums up those effects [of the Christ-event] under ten different images: justification, salvation, reconciliation, expiation, redemption, freedom, sanctification, transformation, new creation, and glorification. ... If the Christ-event is conceived of as a decahedron, a ten-sided solid figure, one can understand how Paul, gazing at one panel of it, might use one image to express its effect (e.g., he justified us), whereas he might use another image when gazing at another panel (e.g., he reconciled us). Each of the ten panels would be expressing only one aspect of the whole." (pg 82)

"From patristic times on, the effective sense of dikaioo (make righteous) has been used. John Chrysostom explained it as dikaion poiesai (to make [someone] righteous). Similarly Augustine employed iusti facti or iusti efficimur. Because of such statements, A. E. McGrath concluded that 'righteousness, effected in justification, is regarded by Augustine as inherent rather than imputed, to use the vocabulary of the sixteenth century.’" (pg 85)

"[T]he important idea for Paul is that sinners are justified by God's grace through faith." (ibid) “[T]hat Pauline idea of faith is not complete as it appears in Romans; one has also to relate to it what Paul says in Galatians 5:6 about a faith that 'works itself out through love' (pistis di' agapes energoumene)." (pg 87)

... continued ...

Moonshadow said...

"The trouble with Paul's use of erga nomou ['works of the law'] is that he does not always use the full phrase. ... For instance, Paul says, 'If Abraham was justified by deeds, he has reason to boast.' (Rom. 4:2) ... Paul is thinking of 'deeds of the law,' but his tendency to abbreviate and generalize the expression is precisely what gave rise eventually to the antinomian caricature of Pauline teaching that is refuted in the Epistle of James: 'You see that a human being is justified by deeds, and not by faith alone' (ouk ek pisteos monon, James 2:24), which sounds like a contradiction of Galatians 2:16." (pg 90)

To complete the picture of justification from Romans and Galatians, Fr. Fitzmyer cites Philippians 2:12-13, Ephesians 2:8-10, and Acts 13:38-39. In Philippians, "Paul speaks here not about justification, but about another effect of the Christ-event, 'salvation', and employs a compound verb of the root erg- (work, deed). Verse 12 might sound like an exhortation to works-righteousness with its mention of obedience, fear, and trembling - if it is read out of context. When it is taken with verse 13, however, it is clear that the human will and effort needed for salvation result only from God's gracious help. When the verses are so read, they reformulate Paul's teaching about justification by grace and speak rather of salvation with God's assistance." (pgs. 91-92)

"Paul mentions in [Romans] 2:5-6 the revelation of "God's just judgment' on the day of wrath, when 'he will repay everyone according to his deeds.' Thus Paul confirms the validity of Old Testament teaching about God's eschatological retribution." (pg 92) "Christians do not work out their salvation alone, apart from God's saving grace, even if one day they will have to answer for their deeds." (pg 92)

"These verses [Eph. 2:8-10] stress in their own way the relation of good deeds wrought with what later theologians would call God's prevenient grace, to the goal of Christian life, viz., salvation. ... [T]here verses emphasize that Christians are to cooperate with God's grace in working out their salvation. All boasting and works-righteousness are excluded from this view of human destiny." (pg 92-93)

"I recognize that there are other ways in which the apostle has described the effects of the Christ-event. The Christian gospel makes all these effects known to human beings, and so that gospel cannot be limited or restricted to justification by faith. ... a vision of God whose righteousness and fidelity to his promises require of his sin-prone human creatures an acknowledgement in faith of his justifying power and grace made available through his Son, Jesus Christ, in the work of the Holy Spirit." (pg 94)

Daughter of Wisdom said...

As a Prostestant myself, I am sick and tired of hearing preachers teach that works have nothing to do with one's salvation. Yes, Christ died for our sins and paid the price because WE COULD NOT. Many have neglected to tell us however that once we repent of our sins, the Holy Spirit is given to us change our lives from sinful to holy. This change involves WORK. This is a work we cannot do ourselves, but can only be done with us COOPERATING WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. If we reject this work of change (also called santification), then we would be no better than we were before we repented. We would then revert back to our former selves because we did not follow up with the heart and lifestyle change offered by the Holy Spirit.

Why is this so hard for many to understand? Why are many pushing a cheap grace instead? It is as if they are saying, "Live any way you want, as long as you have Jesus you will go to heaven." Well, they are only partially right. It is true that as long as you have Jesus you will go to heaven, but what they fail to tell us is that "having Jesus" means accepting Him into your life, and living a life according to His Spirit. This means that salvation requires an act of participation on our part of acceptance and obedience to the will of God. God offers salvation and the power to live righteously, but we have to accept His salvation and the power He offers to live righteously. A good example is Judas. He believed in Jesus as the Messiah, but he neglected to do what was right and sinned by betraying Jesus. I am sure Christ would have forgiven him if he truly repented, but instead of throwing himself at the mercy of God in repentance, he went and took his own life in self-condemnation. The moral is this: Believing in Jesus as Savior is not enough, even the devils believe He is the Messiah. We have to now enter into a saving faith relationship with Him of righteousness, as His newborn children of faith.

Just my little soap box.

Jennie said...

"How often you've tried it, sympathetic reading or listening to someone you strongly disagree with? Trying their arguments on to see how they might fit after all? On the contrary, I recall you saying that you've already pretty much made up your mind about things, so I'm not sure how much of a fair hearing you can give."

Yes, I have done this, and it is difficult; but after I read something sympathetically, then I have to go back and compare everything to scriptures to test it; and that is why I said at an earlier time that I could not become catholic; I had made up my mind AFTER comparing many things to scripture and finding that the catholic teachings and conversion stories don't stand up against scripture. It seems presumptuous to say that about someone elses story, but if I judged by my own heart and emotions, I would easily be led astray ('the heart is deceitful above all things'); I have to go by scripture.

"However, how do you feel about people who become Catholic and try to convert their former church, then? That's meant rhetorically so you can perhaps empathize with how I feel deep-down about his defection. Baptists aren't the only ones with hearts for the lost. :-)"
I think I know what you mean; but I can't agree that it is a defection, which implies desertion or apostasy; he has left the false and come to the truth, in obedience to God, as all of us are called to do.
Let's get back to the subject of the thread now. I'll answer as I have time.

Jennie said...

"Because, that's what we are talking about here, I believe, monergism vs. synergism, as R. C. Sproul would put it."
I'm not sure that that's what we're talking about, but if it is, then the calvinists take monergism (that salvation is all of God with nothing of man) too far and the catholics take synergism (that salvation is a cooperative effort between God and man) too far, even farther than the arminians.

"Paul sums up those effects [of the Christ-event] under ten different images: justification, salvation, reconciliation, expiation, redemption, freedom, sanctification, transformation, new creation, and glorification."

First of all, the term 'Christ-event' sounds rather technical, in a creepy sort of way. But, yes, Paul uses different words for different aspects and events of overall salvation. You need to understand that the bible teaches that salvation begins with justification,reconciliation, expiation, redemption, freedom (from the guilt of sin), and new creation (regeneration) which all occur at the moment of faith in Christ, which is accompanied by repentance and submission to God. Sanctification, transformation, and glorification occur after rebirth by the Spirit. Glorification of course occurs at the resurrection.
The aspects which occur immediately are called 'salvation' because the person is a new creature and will go to heaven if he dies, but as long as he lives the process is continued in sanctification (being made like Christ) BY THE SPIRIT THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD. 'Sanctify them by Thy truth; Thy word is truth.'
So a person is truly 'saved' at the moment of faith, by Christ's imputed righteousness being applied and by the washing and regeneration of the Spirit.
I quoted many passages in my post and you can read the whole chapters of Romans to get a clearer picture.

Jennie said...

The following passage makes it clear that we are saved because of God's grace and mercy, not by our works, and that we 'are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit... that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.'

Titus 3:
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Moonshadow said...

I quoted many passages in my post and you can read the whole chapters of Romans to get a clearer picture.

Yes, and Fitzmyer works from the same passages as you. So I went to him in order to provide you with an interpretation that differs from yours and yet is undeniably biblical.

Yes, "Christ-event" is a very creepy shorthand. Sounds impersonal but that's unintentional. Fitzmyer's faith in Christ would probably astound you, if you knew of it firsthand.

too far, even farther than the arminians.

I've never heard anyone else ever say that.

But monergism isn't your view of justification, then that leaves us with some degree of synergism. And the devil's in the details. What have we to discuss?

Can I ask some questions with, I hope, not offending you?

Was Paul's Letter to the Romans written, more or less, exclusively to correct the errors of what would later become the Roman Catholic Church?

Did God foresee Rome's apostasy and still try to get the word out to them? Did Rome at some point stop reading the Letter to the Romans and so, consequently veer from its teaching? Does the message of Paul's letter apply more today to Roman Catholics than to believers who have come to believe? When you read the Letter to the Romans, do you read it for yourself or for those you know?

Peace of Christ.

Moonshadow said...

through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

This verse speaks of water baptism.

Jennie said...

Matthew 3:11 (New King James Version)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 3:
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Titus 3:
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

If you read these three passages, it may help you understand that the Titus passage is talking about washing by the Spirit, to cleanse us from sin. Water baptism is done as a symbol of our dying to sin and being reborn in Christ. It is done after the person has already come to faith in Christ, in obedience to Him.
The baptism of the Spirit which washes us and renews us is what saves us.
These two passages,'unless one is born of water and the Spirit' and
'through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit', are parallel passages, and both are talking about two aspect of what the Holy Spirit does in us when we trust in Christ. The Spirit washes us and regenerates us. The water baptism is a symbol of this.
In the following chapter, John 4 (after the John 3:5-6 passage) Jesus clarifies this concept by teaching of the living water, which is the Holy Spirit in us.
John 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Jennie said...

"But monergism isn't your view of justification, then that leaves us with some degree of synergism. And the devil's in the details. What have we to discuss?"
I don't like to use terms like those to define myself or especially to define biblical teachings, because the terms are not really accurate and can change in definition and degree according to who is using them. I think I would be closer to monergism in that I believe we are not saved by any works we can do, but I do believe that we can respond to God's call and choose to submit ourselves to Him in repentance. But I don't really understand whether or not it's God who makes us able to respond.

Jennie said...

Teresa,
going back to your earlier comments about Fr. Fitzmyer:
"In Philippians, "Paul speaks here not about justification, but about another effect of the Christ-event, 'salvation', and employs a compound verb of the root erg- (work, deed). Verse 12 might sound like an exhortation to works-righteousness with its mention of obedience, fear, and trembling - if it is read out of context. When it is taken with verse 13, however, it is clear that the human will and effort needed for salvation result only from God's gracious help. When the verses are so read, they reformulate Paul's teaching about justification by grace and speak rather of salvation with God's assistance." (pgs. 91-92)"
Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

These verses are speaking of people that are already saved but are continuing in salvation in being made like Christ. It is not speaking of justification. Justification is by grace through faith, and so is our continued sanctification. So it's not 'reformulating Paul's teaching on justification' at all. They are already justified.

Jennie said...

"Was Paul's Letter to the Romans written, more or less, exclusively to correct the errors of what would later become the Roman Catholic Church?"

"Did God foresee Rome's apostasy and still try to get the word out to them? Did Rome at some point stop reading the Letter to the Romans and so, consequently veer from its teaching? Does the message of Paul's letter apply more today to Roman Catholics than to believers who have come to believe? When you read the Letter to the Romans, do you read it for yourself or for those you know?"

Romans was written to all of us, and I believe that the teachings on justification by faith certainly apply to anyone who tries to justify themselves by works, whether Jews or catholics or anyone else. Certainly God knew of the future teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and was thinking of catholics and others who do the same things.
When I read Romans, I think of myself and how it applies to me, and also how it applies to others, especially as I've been studying catholicism.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

What Paul is really saying in these passages in Romans about "works" is that any effort on our part to change our sinful nature to holy will be met with failure, because we are unable to do it. On the other hand, any change made in our sinful nature is not because of our efforts, (lest any man should boast) but because God is the one who does the changing. We are unable to change ourselves. Only God has the power to change our hearts.

People who try to change their own hearts by attempting to do all in the law will be met with failure. People whose hearts are changed by the Spirit of God will find it easier to obey God's law because God has changed them from the inside out and has given them new natures, which is obedient to God's law. The natural man is at enemity with God and cannot do the things of God, because of our carnal, sinful nature. Trying to live a holy life with a carnal, sinful nature will result in frustration and failure. We need to be changed from carnal to holy, and then and only then will we be able to live a righteous life. It is like trying to ask a dog to live as a human. It is impossible for a dog to live as a human no matter how hard he tries. If the dog's nature is however changed from dog nature to human nature, then that dog will be able to live as a human.

Jennie said...

And the change in nature, from the old man to the new man, happens immediately by faith, as I have been stressing.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Hi Jennie,

Yes I agree, that the change in nature happens immediately by faith, but it does seem that God does not change our natures completely. It seems as if parts of our old nature still remains and thus we are in a constant battle at times with our old and new nature. What do you think?

Paul speaks about his struggles with the old sinful nature:

Romans 7:14-25 (New International Version)

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


Footnotes:
Romans 7:18 Or my flesh

My opinion is that the sinful nature is still present but God gives us power through the Holy Spirit to repress and eventually overcome it. In Roman 8:9-11 we read:

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you (NIV).

What do you think? I admit this concept of the war between the old nature and the new nature is not the easiest thing to understand. It has been the subject of debate for centuries within the church, but yet for our own salvation (and peace of mind) we really need to get a good grasp of this.

Jennie said...

My husband, Eddie, has a sermon series on overcoming temptation that speaks about this subject (from April and May this year) here:http://www.exchangedlife.com/Sermons/sermons.htm

You are right that we still struggle with our sinful nature, also called the flesh. My purpose for this post, however is to show that salvation is by grace through faith, apart from works, and that we are saved immediately by the regeneration and washing of the Spirit and justified immediately by Christ's imputed righteousness, so I have not stressed the aspect you have brought up here. It is important to understand, however, so maybe we can talk about it on another thread later. I think my husband's sermons would be helpful, and others he has done on that same link would be helpful too.

Jennie said...

Here's another sermon on the same subject: http://www.exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/in_the_spirit/crucify_flesh.shtml

Jennie said...

“[T]hat Pauline idea of faith is not complete as it appears in Romans; one has also to relate to it what Paul says in Galatians 5:6 about a faith that 'works itself out through love' (pistis di' agapes energoumene)."

Gal. 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Notice this passage talks about 'righteousness by faith', and goes on to say only 'faith working through love' avails anything to make us righteous. It is the FAITH that is working IN us through God's love. See Romans 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Jennie said...

"The trouble with Paul's use of erga nomou ['works of the law'] is that he does not always use the full phrase. ... For instance, Paul says, 'If Abraham was justified by deeds, he has reason to boast.' (Rom. 4:2) ... Paul is thinking of 'deeds of the law,' but his tendency to abbreviate and generalize the expression is precisely what gave rise eventually to the antinomian caricature of Pauline teaching that is refuted in the Epistle of James: 'You see that a human being is justified by deeds, and not by faith alone' (ouk ek pisteos monon, James 2:24), which sounds like a contradiction of Galatians 2:16." (pg 90)

Here is a quote from my husband's sermon on 'Equipping Ourselves to Answer Common Questions':
James says that we are justified by works, but Paul’s letter to the Ephesian church says that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. Is this a conflict? It might appear to be a conflict to someone who is ignorant of the rest of scripture but in truth there is no conflict at all. Even this passage where Paul says that salvation is not by works, he also states that we are saved for good works. Paul and James both point to good works as the evidence of salvation. The teaching of James is complimentary to what was instructed by Paul. In fact, it is very likely that he was attempting to clarify misunderstandings in the church based on what Paul wrote for James uses the same illustration Paul used to explain justification by faith in Romans 4. Paul uses Abraham’s faith to explain how that man is credited with the righteousness of God by faith without having to earn righteousness by works.
One of the unfortunate realities of human nature is that mankind will attempt to justify himself by finding loopholes in the Bible. Even today we have problems with the ‘easy believism’ where people claim to believe Jesus is their savior, but do not have any desire to live a godly life but instead continue to live solely for the flesh. Paul criticizes this throughout his writings, but people still take one passage out of context and try to make the Bible fit their life in the flesh rather than conforming their life to Christ. James is addressing that very thing. James is confronting those who say they believe in God but show no evidence in their lives. James states that even the devils believe in God, but the evidence that we truly have faith is the works that come out in our lives. If there are no works that testify to our salvation, our faith is dead regardless of what we say we believe.
(CONTINUED)

Jennie said...

If Abraham said he believed God, but then refused to offer Isaac, his faith would have been dead for he would have acted in disobedience and remained in the flesh. Saying ‘I believe’ and then acting in disbelief means nothing. Abraham was justified when he stepped out in faith to put his trust in God. The story of Rahab the harlot was also used as an example of faith. This sinful woman became justified when she turned to obedience and was protected by God when Jericho was judged and destroyed. The writings of Paul attest to this very thing as Paul warns that faith does not allow us to walk in our own ways. James is not presenting anything different than what Paul and the other apostles have stated in their writings, but he has worded it in a way that is more confrontational to the concept of easy believism. Also in Romans, Paul clarifies that those who sought justification through the rules of the law missed faith in Christ. According to Romans 9, the apostles confronted the idea that salvation could be found by trying to keep the works of the law for this is merely a human effort. Those who sought to justify themselves by works stumbled over faith in Christ.
There are three concepts being addressed. First, the apostles confronted those who thought they could merit salvation. Even the works mentioned by James is not presented as a merit to salvation, but the evidence of our faith and salvation. Those who thought they could merit salvation through the law stumbled over grace for they could not accept the gift of God which requires no human effort. Second, the apostles confronted the idea that we could live any way we wanted and claim that we walk in the light of truth. If we belong to Christ, the evidence of Christ will be manifest in our lives by our works and actions. The third point made was that true salvation is trusting in Christ to receive the gift offered freely by faith.
Works aren’t the things we do to merit favor from God, it is what God is doing through us and is the evidence of salvation. Faith is made evident by holiness and good works in our lives. This is illustrated in the fruit of the Spirit described in Galatians 5 (which was written by Paul). Paul writes that godly men must show a pattern of good works (Titus 2:7), that God purifies people for Himself who are zealous for good works (Titus 2:14), instructs the faithful to be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and instructs the leaders to show love in order to stir up the desire of others to do good works (Hebrews 10:24). The message is that good works cannot merit grace for grace is the unmerited favor of God; however, anyone who has the Spirit of God will have good works that testify that their faith is true. Living faith is from God and produces good works, but dead faith is simply a belief system that produces nothing of God.
END OF QUOTE

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Hi Jennie,

I just happened to be on the computer when your comments came up. Great quotes from your husband. He made everything real clear. Shows great handle of the scriptures! A skillful workman rightly dividing the word of Truth.

Jennie said...

"To complete the picture of justification from Romans and Galatians, Fr. Fitzmyer cites Philippians 2:12-13, Ephesians 2:8-10, and Acts 13:38-39. In Philippians, "Paul speaks here not about justification, but about another effect of the Christ-event, 'salvation', and employs a compound verb of the root erg- (work, deed). Verse 12 might sound like an exhortation to works-righteousness with its mention of obedience, fear, and trembling - if it is read out of context. When it is taken with verse 13, however, it is clear that the human will and effort needed for salvation result only from God's gracious help. When the verses are so read, they reformulate Paul's teaching about justification by grace and speak rather of salvation with God's assistance." (pgs. 91-92)

"Paul mentions in [Romans] 2:5-6 the revelation of "God's just judgment' on the day of wrath, when 'he will repay everyone according to his deeds.' Thus Paul confirms the validity of Old Testament teaching about God's eschatological retribution." (pg 92) "Christians do not work out their salvation alone, apart from God's saving grace, even if one day they will have to answer for their deeds." (pg 92)

"These verses [Eph. 2:8-10] stress in their own way the relation of good deeds wrought with what later theologians would call God's prevenient grace, to the goal of Christian life, viz., salvation. ... [T]here verses emphasize that Christians are to cooperate with God's grace in working out their salvation. All boasting and works-righteousness are excluded from this view of human destiny." (pg 92-93)"
Phil. 2:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

This passage is not saying to DO works FOR salvation. We are saved FOR good works, not BY good works. It is saying to be obedient to God, who tells us to abide in Christ and love Him, and continue in the salvation we already have by faith. If we do not continue in it, then 'faith without works is dead.'

See Eph. 2:1-10 part of which your quote above mentions:
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
This passage says that we were dead in our sins and Christ made us alive by grace through faith, not of works, lest anyone should boast. We are His workmanship, created FOR good works, by the power of the Holy Spirit who comes to us when we trust in Christ by faith for the forgiveness of our sins.
CONTINUED

Jennie said...

You mentioned the day of wrath, when people will be judged according to their deeds:
"Paul mentions in [Romans] 2:5-6 the revelation of "God's just judgment' on the day of wrath, when 'he will repay everyone according to his deeds.' Thus Paul confirms the validity of Old Testament teaching about God's eschatological retribution." (pg 92) "Christians do not work out their salvation alone, apart from God's saving grace, even if one day they will have to answer for their deeds." (pg 92)

The day of wrath is reserved for the wicked, who have rejected Christ's provision, not for the Christians who have trusted in Him by faith. See 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (New King James Version)
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

The bible says believers will be judged, but not for salvation; we will be judged and then chastised and/or rewarded. We will not be at the great white throne where the wicked are judged. We will already be resurrected by then. See Rev. 20. The believers are resurrected when Christ returns, but the wicked are judged after the 1000 year reign.

Jennie said...

Hi Daughter of Wisdom,
Thanks, my husband does a great job, and is definitely a faithful workman.
He is good at explaining things so we can practically apply scriptures.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

You're most welcome and it's my pleasure.

Now on to a more practical note of how to apply this teaching of justification by faith. As I am a Christian who believes in practicality, I always try to see how scriptures learnt can be applied in a real way, and move away from head knowledge to practical application.

Based upon the above discussion then, are we saying that a Christian who believes by faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ for sin will make it into heaven, even if that Christian proceeds to live a life where the flesh is indulged?

We know that we are not justified by our works (efforts), "therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight" (Romans 3:20). We know too that God is not going to look at our good works and use them to justify us before Him, because our good deeds cannot atone for our sins. We also know that even though we receive a new heart and spirit when we become saved, doing the works of righteousness, as we all know, is not always easy or convenient. Just because we have the Holy Spirit does not mean we always automatically display righteous living.

I honestly believe that salvation is a process, and not a stagnant one-time event. Claiming you were "saved" 40 years ago, but displaying no growth in faith in the Lord, and only doing good works when it is convenient, and indulging the flesh for the mere pleasure or convenience of it, just does not sound right. The thief on the cross is one exception to the process because he did not have opportunity to display the works of righteousness. If he had lived afterwards, then he too would have to display the works of righteousness in his life. What I do understand however is that God is the one who gives us the power and ability to do what is right. Jesus said we are to love God with all our heart, soul,and might and our neighbor as ourselves. This is an impossible command if attempted in the flesh, in our own strength. Through the power of the Holy Spirit though, we will be able to follow this command, albeit, with His leading and empowerment. I also understand that works which are done through love and faith are pleasing to God, and that works done to justify self, with an attitude of self-righteousness are displeasing to God.

So let me go back to my question again: Does the Christian who believes by faith in Jesus atoning sacrifice but who indulges the flesh, will that person be saved? For example, a Christian who is living in adulterous relationship, believes God is a forgiving God, and that Jesus's blood cleanses from sin, but continues to live in sin, counting on his/her faith in Jesus' sacrifice to save them. (I am playing the devil's advocate here because these are just some of the more practical issues that Christians face and are involved in. You and I know about these situations too as we are both active servants of Christ in the body).

Jennie said...

Daughter of Wisdom,
That's one of the most important questions concerning salvation; and we've already answered it, to some extent, here by speaking of the book of James, which stresses that, while we are saved by grace through faith, if we show no works of righteousness after professing faith, then our faith is dead. We don't have the space here to go through all the passages in James, and other related passages, such as the book of 1 John, which talks about walking in sin or in righteousness.
Here's one passage from James that speaks of this:
James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him....14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights...18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

James also says we endure temptation by first submitting to God (and our first submission is to His word by faith to repent and be saved) and THEN we can resist the devil and flee tempatation.

The passage above also says that those who endure temptation will receive the crown of life, but that temptation, if not endured, leads to sin and death; not that every time we sin, we are lost, but that if we continue in a life of sin, we are in danger of death. I think only God knows the point at which a person can be lost; or maybe this shows the person was never truly in the faith. Apostasy is always a danger.
The passage also stresses that 'Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures' so we see again that we are reborn (brought forth) by His will by 'the word of truth' which we accept by faith.